Anachronisms in Fantasy

[rounser]

come back l*w m*gic lovers, all is forgiven

I think we're due for one of those threads any day now.

 

[fusangite]

As I've said on the previous page, I'm cool with (a few) technical anachronism (after all, the typical D&D setting is not the real world's past, and as Aelryinth said smithing mithral and adamantine are anachronical techniques), but dislike societal anachronism (there are already enough that are enforced for gameplay reasons, no need to add more).

By societal anachronism, I mean mindset that relies too much on modern conceptions. Human rights, political correctness, consumer society, large service industry, abstract capitalism, etc.

Nice to know we're on the same page here Gez. Sorry I missed your post when I reviewed the thread.

 

[Desdichado]

Can we now stop splitting hairs?

No, we cannot. Because unless you clearly define what the genre is, calling anything in it an anachronism is impossible to do.

 

[Mystery Man]

You can't avoid the anachronisms, of the D&D worlds, I'll break some bubbles for all of us:

1. Eberron: D&D world. instead of carpets of flying and teleport circles, there are civilized nations with the ever-game-breaking 'lightning rail,' of which less than one sentence has been devoted.

2. Greyhawk: Not one, not two, but THREE alien spaceships. The WARDEN, Barrier Peaks, and Blackmoor's city of the gods (a whole civilized world). Psionics from Xan Yae. 6-shooters with followers of Myrlund. Radigast city named after Radigast the wizard from LotR.

3. Forgotten Realms: Rote rip-off's of all of the Finnish Gods (and then some); GUNPOWDER; Mongols, China, Japan, Egypt.

4. Mystara: flying boats and (again) Blackmoor's city of the Gods

5. Dark Sun: Everybody is psionic. You can play a thri-kreen

6. Kalamar: pretty honestly nothing new. This world is pretty closely aligned with what people would consider 'basic swords & sorcery'

7. Hyboria/Conan: It doesn't get any more classic than this world except...

8. Middle Earth: GUNPOWDER. Julian calendar (don't forget October). One of the original 'fantasy' experiment worlds.

9. Dragonlance: Draconians, Minotaur-run continent that is a direct ripoff of imperial Rome.


I guess if there's a standard, it would be Kalamar and Hyboria.

jh

10. Midnight: MIddle Earth on opposite day. As long as you're making a list and all...

 

[Turjan]

As I've said on the previous page, I'm cool with (a few) technical anachronism (after all, the typical D&D setting is not the real world's past, and as Aelryinth said smithing mithral and adamantine are anachronical techniques), but dislike societal anachronism (there are already enough that are enforced for gameplay reasons, no need to add more).

By societal anachronism, I mean mindset that relies too much on modern conceptions. Human rights, political correctness, consumer society, large service industry, abstract capitalism, etc.

That's why I said in my first post that most fantasy settings contain "a mixed bags of elements from around 800 (or much earlier) to the late 20th century." The late 20th century elements I was talking of can be found on the societal side. D&D, as it is marketed today, is built on societal structures that are generally found in the late 1960's the earliest, but resemble more the 1980's or even the last decade.

Anyway, I suppose it's pretty complicated to play something like "late medieval society". We have strict hierachies. We have restrictions of movement, except for wealthy traders, nobles and some special cases. This sets some harsh restricitions on roleplaying, and I'm sure not everyone is comfortable with that. I'm already happy when the political correctness stuff stays out of the game. Don't take me wrong: I'm not up to playing a redneck campaign, but it is kind of silly if pc debates creep into so-called "medieval" societies where the opposite was true: don't transgress your position in society.

I have a pet peeve with fantasy city maps. Most of them show ideal motorways; you probably don't have to slow down below 45 mph for passing through the city. Then we find big parking lots around the buildings; your whole family can park their SUV's around your home. I took advantage of the latest FFG sale and bought "Cityworks", which contains a chapter about how to design a city. There we find the points "residential area" (split by class) and "industrial area". Okay, this means it's obviously late 19th century, when the old principle that you live where you work became void.

This means that everybody has his own pet peeves. That's probably why we have so many different settings .

 

[Captain Tagon]

Fireball scrolls and an infinite Abyss would fit Middle Earth better than a magic train, according to me.

I love the smell of backfiring sarcasm in the morning.

And yet somehow the guy who wrote Middle Earth decided to put you know, none of that in. Which indicates to me that high fantasy is something that avoids and overly wrought planar structure, commonplace magic, and little to no magic as technology vibe. Which is totally fine with me because that is what high fantasy is. And again, that is why we need to split hairs, because the genre something falls into helps define what is out of place for it.

 

[drnuncheon]

You may have no trouble going down this path a bit, might even think it logical to do so. I say that doing so destroys suspension of disbelief, because if X (magical trains), why not Y (magical jet aircraft)

Airships?

and Z (magical burrowing machines).

They wouldn't seem out of place in Eberron. How come you don't seem to have this problem with, say, the apparatus of Kwalish? The ring of force shield, which seems like it ought to be in a space opera of some kind? How about the little anachronisms in the spell components? (penny for your thoughts...)

The weird thing about this is that D&D requires even more suspension of disbelief, because it requires you to believe that people haven't done any of these things, because if they had, the world would look totally different.

So if you're arbitrarily going to accept certain things, why not lightning rails and warforged?

It's completely a matter of taste, which is fine - as long as you don't dress someone else's tastes up as "destroying the mythic resonance of the game". That's pretty rude.

J

 

[Zappo]

Which brings me to my real problem with this anachronism question. It seems to me that people tend to only get upset by technological anachronisms and not by social anachronisms. Many fantasy worlds seem to be about modern people having modern ideas and doing modern things while carrying around pre-modern tech.

That isn't too implausible. Many fantasy worlds have from several thousands to tens of thousands of years of civilization on their backs. All those ancient empires and golden ages and whatnot. Of course, technology probably greatly hastens the arise of modern thought, but in high-magic settings, magic may be able to partially take that place. Even in low-magic settings, enough eons of low-tech history could (I don't say have to, just could) eventually produce a modern society.

 

[Tinker Gnome]

None of my games are run in a way that really societally resembles the Medieval times, and I like it that way. So yep, I have stuff like equal rigghts and other things like that.

 

[The Shaman]

I think Howard and Lieber are on the swords'n'sorcery side of pulp. Eberron draws a lot of inspiration from the pulp serials. Look at Indiana Jones (a modern take on the old pulp serials), Flash Gordon, the Shadow, or many of the others. That is what Eberron is drawing on (amongst other things).

I'm a huge fan of swords 'n' sorcery, space opera, and masked avengers - my HB D&D campaign is very much the former, my first M&M game was the latter, and I'd like to try a retro-future space opera game with d20 Modern/Future somewhere down the line.

Eberron doesn't really feel like any of these to me - it feels like too many disparate concepts bolted-on to the sacred cows of D&D.

I know there are a lot of people that are passionate in their love for Eberron, and may Gawd bless you all, but for me, it's just not happening. For swords-and-sorcery pulp adventures, give me the Wilderlands of High Fantasy any day (and twice on Sunday).

Now some may take exception to my use of the term pulp adventures...

I suspect you're mis-reading what is being said. We say 'pulp' fantasy, you think we're saying 'pulp fantasy'. Pulp refers to 'dime novels', which include the likes of Doc Savage, while 'pulp fantasy' is the subcategory of 'Conan'. Eberron tries to feel it's way between Flash Gordonesque Action & Adventure and Film Noir.

So if I understand this correctly, Eberron is a fantasy game with a pulp feel, but not a pulp fantasy game?

I...uh...that's...huh....okay...little help?

Eberron is Pulp Pulp Fantasy Fantasy. (Parses that! )

Okay, now you're just making my head hurt.



And one more thing...

..."come back l*w m*gic lovers, all is forgiven"...