Angel 11-05-03 (Potential spoilers)

[Heretic Apostate]

I saw a rerun a while back, and in it, Cordy was evil, was manipulating Connor, and had stolen Angel's soul, blackmailing Angelus to do her dirty work or else she'd give the soul back.

WTH?!?!

(Okay, I've seen only one or two episodes, ever, so I have no clue what is going on...)

Also, saw an episode where Cordy went all transcendent, and was trying to contact them to get her the heck out of there... Again, WTH?

 

[CCamfield]

But on the other hand, GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

So Wesley has NO knowledge of his betrayal, his abandonment by his friends, his evil deeds, and possibly even his relationship with Lilah, all spawned because of Connor? Basically his last year and a half of character development is gone? That's just a complete cop-out. No wonder he still has issues with Fred - everything that happened to him may not have now! I'm sorry, but this just upsets me to no end.

Wha??

Someone mentioned an earlier discussion of this in this forum (but I can't search) - pointers? Are we really sure on this point?

 

[LightPhoenix]

I saw a rerun a while back, and in it, Cordy was evil, was manipulating Connor, and had stolen Angel's soul, blackmailing Angelus to do her dirty work or else she'd give the soul back.

WTH?!?!

Also, saw an episode where Cordy went all transcendent, and was trying to contact them to get her the heck out of there... Again, WTH?

Cordy transcended to become one of The Powers That Be, but the evil entity Jasmine took over her body, while her soul was still in the higher planes.

Jasmine-as-Cordy was manipulating Connor, as the child of Connor and Cordy's union would give Jasmine physical form. Another of her minions was The Beast, who seemed to know Angel way back when he was Angelus. In their infinte stupidity, Team Angel thought it would be a good idea to take out Angel's soul for a time, to question Angelus. The soul was then stolen, Angelus escaped, and then was blackmailed by Jasmine-as-Cordy.

 

[LightPhoenix]

Wha??

Someone mentioned an earlier discussion of this in this forum (but I can't search) - pointers? Are we really sure on this point?

No, which is the problem.

At the end of last season, Lilah worked some sort of magic to make everyone except Angel and her (and possibly others) forget Connor. I assumed, and I assume most people did, that all the events of last season and the one before still happened. The only difference is that no one remembered Connor.

According to Wesley and Angel's conversation in this episode, Wesley clearly doesn't remember the prophecy that caused him to betray the others. Which means the magic may have done more than just make people forget Connor, but all the time and events associated with him.

Meaning, Wesley doesn't remember his betrayal, so he isn't bitter and more bad-ass. Everyone trusts him just as much as they did beforehand, because he didn't do it. No one remembers, apparently.

Now, it's entirely possible that none of them remember anything to do with Holtz, Connor, or Jasmine - a big part of the last two seasons. Fred may not remember exposing Jasmine (Connor is Jasmine's father, of sorts), Wesley may not remember his relationship with Lilah (fueled by his estrangement with the rest of the gang), and so on and so forth. It essentially calls into question everything we know to have happened in the last two years, especially regarding character development.

For that matter, no one may even know why Cordelia is in a coma, except for Angel and Lilah.

 

[Vocenoctum]

It essentially calls into question everything we know to have happened in the last two years, especially regarding character development.

For that matter, no one may even know why Cordelia is in a coma, except for Angel and Lilah.

I'm pretty sure they mentioned Cordelia at some point this season.

I wonder though, exactly what the group thinks? I mean if they got W&H because of Jasmine's defeat, yet Jasmine/ Connor didn't exist...

 

[CCamfield]

According to Wesley and Angel's conversation in this episode, Wesley clearly doesn't remember the prophecy that caused him to betray the others. Which means the magic may have done more than just make people forget Connor, but all the time and events associated with him.

Ahhhh. Hmm. Maybe I'm going to watch this week's episode again - I taped it. I remember being puzzled by his reaction but didn't put 2 and 2 together.

If they forgot... that would be odd....

 

[LightPhoenix]

I'm pretty sure they mentioned Cordelia at some point this season.

I wonder though, exactly what the group thinks? I mean if they got W&H because of Jasmine's defeat, yet Jasmine/ Connor didn't exist...

IIRC, it's Angel that mentioned Cordy, and we know Angel remembers everything.

Even so, Cordy could still be in a coma and no one remembers why. And the offer can be not contingent on Jasmine's defeat.

It's pretty much impossible to tell what the group actually knows at this point.

 

[WizarDru]

IIRC, it's Angel that mentioned Cordy, and we know Angel remembers everything.

Even so, Cordy could still be in a coma and no one remembers why. And the offer can be not contingent on Jasmine's defeat.

It's pretty much impossible to tell what the group actually knows at this point.

Personally, I think that, like with most magic, it did something weird. And by this, I mean that it may have created a causality problem that Wesley is going to notice (and this was the first clue on that path). My belief is that Team Angel remembers most of the Jasmine affiar, but in a hazy way, and they've all been so busy that none of them have really given much thought to it. I could have sworn that Eve made specific reference to the whole Jasmine thing, in the first episode, AFTER the mind-wipe.

But soon, I expect that they're going to notice inconsistincies, and Wesley (most likely) will investigate, suspecting that it's a W&H plot of some sort (which it is ). I expect the proverbial Hell to break loose when it does, or when he breaks the protective spell.

Yikes.

(And, in case you were wondering, I really enjoyed this episode. I'm beginning to get a 'first-season Buffy' vibe off of this season, but with even less of a discernable arc than that. Although I hope a meta-plot does start to imply itself, soon).

 

[CCamfield]

Would this mean that Gunn and Fred don't remember even being together? I thought they seemed awfully at ease around each other.

 

[takyris]

We don't know that they don't remember the events with Jasmine at all, or any of the character development that happened in that area. Angel just chose a bad prophecy to bring up -- "The Father Shall Kill the Son" was specifically created by that demon to make Wes think that Angel would kill Connor. It's one of the few things that COULDN'T have happened in a Connorless timeline. All the stuff with Jasmine could still have happened -- people would just edit out the part where Connor played a part in their birth, and the part where he was one of the big hit men.