Angel 4/16/03 --Spoilers!

[John Crichton]

Because of his love for Buffy he became a kind of jerk? Seriously, yes, it was his love for the buffster that made him active, but he is still kind of a butthead. Notice how evil he was under Jasmine's spell? Even when not enspelled, he has some rage issues.

Kind of a butthead? Howzat?

My hope for Spike this season is that he still ends up bad, even with a soul. Mainly because so many people say that since he has a soul now, he's good. I want him to make a choice, perform an action, one more time I want to hear "The Big Bad is Back!".

I contend that Spike was "good" before the soul.

 

[WizarDru]

[BI contend that Spike was "good" before the soul. [/B]

I contend that Spike was a momma's-boy before the soul.

 

[RatPunk]

I think Connor's actions since Jasmine's arrival make it pretty clear that he was under her spell, too (I mean, come on, he was singing Barry Manilow to her! If that ain't mind control...).

I think it's also pretty evident that Cordelia's blood did break that spell, however, Connor's choice to serve Jasmine was made when he sacrificed the innocent girl so that Jasmine could be born. He did that of his own free will, and I don't think there's any coming back for the boy now.

Just my $.02

 

[Hand of Evil]

Kind of a butthead? Howzat?
I contend that Spike was "good" before the soul.

Hey, lets not turn this into an alignment thingy!

He was neutral.

 

[Hand of Evil]

I think Connor's actions since Jasmine's arrival make it pretty clear that he was under her spell, too (I mean, come on, he was singing Barry Manilow to her! If that ain't mind control...).

I think it's also pretty evident that Cordelia's blood did break that spell, however, Connor's choice to serve Jasmine was made when he sacrificed the innocent girl so that Jasmine could be born. He did that of his own free will, and I don't think there's any coming back for the boy now.

Just my $.02

It is also possible Connor is not cured because Jasmine is his child too. But I do think you are right, it is time to kill him off.

 

[Hand of Evil]

Actually, I think that getting their souls back after doing such evil, horrible, unspeakable things, is what makes Spike and Angel do good now. Angel wasn't that good before he was a Vampire, but he didn't go back to the way he was as a human... he became a super good guy because of the bad things he had done while having no soul.

I agree Angel was not really good but he was not evil either, he wasted his life, he wasted what was given to him. Overall he was a good person, he did no harm.

It is my feeling that the amount of evil you get is based on the good that it replaces. Angel had a lot of good in him, he never used it. Spike, was a poet and a good person too but he likes being bad, he likes the dark, the power, but he has to take care of someone, that by himself he is nothing.

It all comes down to choice, Angel has chosen to be good, to be a champion of good. He has drawn a line because he knows what evil is. Spike, is on the fence, he has chosen to be good because of his need to care for someone, who happens to be good, but he still likes the dark, the power and being a big bad.

 

[John Crichton]

Icontend that Spike was a momma's-boy before the soul.

Ain't no contendin' to be done there. That's a fact.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Ain't no contendin' to be done there. That's a fact.

Even his mom told him!

 

[AuroraGyps]

Connor's choice to serve Jasmine was made when he sacrificed the innocent girl so that Jasmine could be born. He did that of his own free will, and I don't think there's any coming back for the boy now.

It might not have been of his free will, or at least not entirely, when he helped to kill the girl. It's possible that Jasmine, through Cordie, was manipulating him. All the time they spent together & the things she said to him could have helped to influence him through magical means.

I agree Angel was not really good but he was not evil either, he wasted his life, he wasted what was given to him. Overall he was a good person, he did no harm.

True, but we'll never know if a mortal Angel would have ever gotten his act togther or become a worse person later on. Being a jerk could have eventually escalated to his doing more. So, while he wasn't evil, he was no saint either.

Seriously, yes, it was his love for the buffster that made him active, but he is still kind of a butthead. Notice how evil he was under Jasmine's spell? Even when not enspelled, he has some rage issues.

It was his love of Buffy that made him a champion for good, but he was helpfull before they became an item and he had a respect for human life, which is evident in his eating rats for years and get his blood from respectable sources. Yes, in the 70's he let the guy die and drank from him, but all good people can go through a time of weakness. The same goes for what he's done for Jasmine... even good people are following her like puppy dogs and they'd probably act just as badly.

 

[Staffan]

It might not have been of his free will, or at least not entirely, when he helped to kill the girl. It's possible that Jasmine, through Cordie, was manipulating him. All the time they spent together & the things she said to him could have helped to influence him through magical means.

Nah, I think that's good old-fashioned verbal manipulation. Connor is not exactly the most stable person to begin with, what with being brought up by a revenge-driven madman in a hell dimension and all.