Annoyed with Wealth Tables
- Thread starter Shalewind
- Start date
Piratecat
Sesquipedalian
Swami said:
Not to hijack, but that statement isn't even close to true. Sting was magical, as was Glamdring and Orcrist. Every single one of the multiple rings of power (including the three elven rings, which we see) were magical. The Mirror of Galadriel was magical. The elven cloaks was magical, as was Sam's box of dirt, as was Bard's black arrow, as was the Nazgul's morgul blade that stabbed Frodo on Weathertop, as was the entwine that the hobbits drank, as was Frodo's vial of Light....
Should I go on?
Okay, done hijacking. Back to the thread! I'm of the opinion that magic items should be a little bit like Captain America's shield; they don't necessarily define the character, but they do complete it.
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Celebrim said:
First: Depend on your fantasy world. Traveling merchants have been selling wares of all values from town to town for centuries. The most valuable of items could be purchased from these merchants, if you could find the right one. WalMart is modern, but that doesn't mean the merchant is.
Second: If you want to roleplay, the go for it. Buying items in a shop is a lot more condusive to roleplaying than most dungeons I have seen. If you just want to get back to the killing field, menus are better. Just because there are shops with all manner of magical items doesn't mean you don't have any roleplaying. Price haggling alone could be an encounter.
Third: Simple cost to the characters. That is the menu system, if the PCs want to use it. Maybe the party doesn't want to track down a particular item. Maybe they want to create unique items. Maybe they want to be their own magic shop. The create feats are still useful.
Fourth: besides the non-wizard casters, there are lots of reasons for the wizard to create magic arms and armor:
Every fighter wants one, so he knows they will sell. The fighters tend to keep the wizards alive longer. There is something of a mystique about a magic sword. Because his friend asked him to. Because he doesn't like wizards in general. Because he always wanted to be a fighter but never could. I think your "realism" test is narrow-minded.
Fifth: magic items are cheap to ballance the classes. If magic items are not pretty easy to acquire, the fighter types will lag behind the casters. Then you need to limit casters, or add something else to the fighters. Like it or not, that is the way 3rd ed works.
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Re: Where do Magic Items come from?
Do you still use the rules for making armor out of mithral, if all you have available is mithril?
-Hyp.
Ergo, the GM controls what's available. Casters who take the feats can still make their own stuff, but unless they own a mithril mine, those chain shirts will still be unavailable!
Do you still use the rules for making armor out of mithral, if all you have available is mithril?
-Hyp.
Celebrim
Legend
Those responding to me have gone down a remarkably large number of paths and tangeants. I don't think I could possibly fully respond to them all.
Concerning PC's finding treasure that they 'can't use', like a +2 mace when you have weapon specialization longsword. Well, them are the breaks. Maybe for a while the fighter is going to have to do some thinking about which weapon he wants to use in which situations. Nothing says that just because you've decided to use X weapon that the world owes you a good one. And while +2 maces may not be commonly on the market, that is not evidence that someone can't be found who will be willing to buy a valuable object like a +2 mace. Simply find someone who has a use for one. Moreover, as a DM you simply can't complain about what treasures are placed and found in your adventures. If you don't want to give the PC's suboptimal treasure, no one is forcing you. If a PC wants a magic longsword, well just place an appropriate longsword in his path if you feel he is owed one.
Concerning traveling or other merchants turning up with the occassional magic item. Well, it is bound to happen occassionally perhaps even with the merchant not even realizing what they have. But it would hardly be a common occurance. It would be the equivalent of a suit of plate mail or a necklace of fine jewels circulating around looking for a buyer. Mostly such works are commissioned for some wealthy person, and when they are sold or stolen or plundered from the original owner they generally move from where they are to who wants them fairly fast. If the merchant does not know of a buyer he is going to be very hesitant to tie up so much of his ready wealth in an object that he doesn't know how long he is going to have to hang on to and which can itself be stolen from him.
If you just want to go back to the killing field, stop playing D20. It offers no advantage. Computer games are a whole lot better choice - and in this day and age they can even be played socially.
LokiDR: I find your fourth and fifth points to be at odds with each other. First you claim that is 'narrow-minded' (your word) to imagine that there would be significant subcultural pressure to not make magic weapons, and then you turn right around and offer up the point that without magic weapons fighter types will lag severely behind spell casters. Err... Can't you possibly imagine wizards wanting to keep thier secrets to themselves? Isn't that a common theme of fantasy? Can't you imagine possibly that each spell caster admonishes each of his apprentices not to friviously give away the objects of his craft? Will there be incidents in which a spell caster gives a gift of a might weapon out of respect or gratitude or obligation to some warrior type and thus bequeths to history a heirloom of great power? Sure, but that doesn't mean that it is all that likely that there are spell casters anywhere offering magic arms wholesale.
Piratecat: No need. The heretics seem properly chastised. But, if I just might add, Frodo wasn't defined by the Ring and perhaps as a character not even Sauron was, but if we wanted to we could certainly cite examples of characters who were very much defined by the objects they owned. The most obvious would be (my single favorite character) Turin Turambar, who is ac much defined by Anglachel as Elric is by Stormbringer.
Concerning the placement of magic items in published modules. Yeah, it has frequently been gratuitous, but 1 ed. was never the worst offender. I tend to elimenate 50% or more of the generic magic items lying around in any TSR module (the three +3 maces in I6 come to mind), but I remember picking up a 2nd edition module for 1st-3rd level characters that offered a +4 weapon among other similar treasure.
Nothing I have said means that NPC's should be treated differently than PC's. Why does this come up in every discussion? Given the fact that this seems to be a hot button issue for so many people, I really wonder how many DM's out there are just ego gamers in disguise? Sheesh. I certainly DONT feel that 1st edition modules were filled with inappropriately stated NPCs, and certainly not in comparison to FR NPC's.
Here is a sample list from a module I just grabbed off the shelf (given in 1st edition order):
13 16 14 18 15 14 (14th level character)
18(56) 11 12 17 14 12 (7th level character)
18(88) 11 9 15 15 10 (7th level character)
18(22) 14 10 12 16 14 (7th level character)
14 12 15 13 14 10 (5th level character)
16 14 9 15 11 9 (5th level character)
Other than the abundance of 18's among the fighters, I don't have a particular problem with that. And in any event it is not particularly germane to the topic at hand and was recently discussed at great length in another thread.
The existance of feats giving the PC abundant magic items is an entirely different thing than a magic shop with a list of items readily available for general consumption. If the PC's got the feats and paid the XP, cost of materials, and found the time to equip themselves then more power to them.
There is any number of other individual points I'd like to respond to but this is already to much of a hodge podge of ideas.
Concerning PC's finding treasure that they 'can't use', like a +2 mace when you have weapon specialization longsword. Well, them are the breaks. Maybe for a while the fighter is going to have to do some thinking about which weapon he wants to use in which situations. Nothing says that just because you've decided to use X weapon that the world owes you a good one. And while +2 maces may not be commonly on the market, that is not evidence that someone can't be found who will be willing to buy a valuable object like a +2 mace. Simply find someone who has a use for one. Moreover, as a DM you simply can't complain about what treasures are placed and found in your adventures. If you don't want to give the PC's suboptimal treasure, no one is forcing you. If a PC wants a magic longsword, well just place an appropriate longsword in his path if you feel he is owed one.
Concerning traveling or other merchants turning up with the occassional magic item. Well, it is bound to happen occassionally perhaps even with the merchant not even realizing what they have. But it would hardly be a common occurance. It would be the equivalent of a suit of plate mail or a necklace of fine jewels circulating around looking for a buyer. Mostly such works are commissioned for some wealthy person, and when they are sold or stolen or plundered from the original owner they generally move from where they are to who wants them fairly fast. If the merchant does not know of a buyer he is going to be very hesitant to tie up so much of his ready wealth in an object that he doesn't know how long he is going to have to hang on to and which can itself be stolen from him.
If you just want to go back to the killing field, stop playing D20. It offers no advantage. Computer games are a whole lot better choice - and in this day and age they can even be played socially.
LokiDR: I find your fourth and fifth points to be at odds with each other. First you claim that is 'narrow-minded' (your word) to imagine that there would be significant subcultural pressure to not make magic weapons, and then you turn right around and offer up the point that without magic weapons fighter types will lag severely behind spell casters. Err... Can't you possibly imagine wizards wanting to keep thier secrets to themselves? Isn't that a common theme of fantasy? Can't you imagine possibly that each spell caster admonishes each of his apprentices not to friviously give away the objects of his craft? Will there be incidents in which a spell caster gives a gift of a might weapon out of respect or gratitude or obligation to some warrior type and thus bequeths to history a heirloom of great power? Sure, but that doesn't mean that it is all that likely that there are spell casters anywhere offering magic arms wholesale.
Piratecat: No need. The heretics seem properly chastised. But, if I just might add, Frodo wasn't defined by the Ring and perhaps as a character not even Sauron was, but if we wanted to we could certainly cite examples of characters who were very much defined by the objects they owned. The most obvious would be (my single favorite character) Turin Turambar, who is ac much defined by Anglachel as Elric is by Stormbringer.
Concerning the placement of magic items in published modules. Yeah, it has frequently been gratuitous, but 1 ed. was never the worst offender. I tend to elimenate 50% or more of the generic magic items lying around in any TSR module (the three +3 maces in I6 come to mind), but I remember picking up a 2nd edition module for 1st-3rd level characters that offered a +4 weapon among other similar treasure.
Nothing I have said means that NPC's should be treated differently than PC's. Why does this come up in every discussion? Given the fact that this seems to be a hot button issue for so many people, I really wonder how many DM's out there are just ego gamers in disguise? Sheesh. I certainly DONT feel that 1st edition modules were filled with inappropriately stated NPCs, and certainly not in comparison to FR NPC's.
Here is a sample list from a module I just grabbed off the shelf (given in 1st edition order):
13 16 14 18 15 14 (14th level character)
18(56) 11 12 17 14 12 (7th level character)
18(88) 11 9 15 15 10 (7th level character)
18(22) 14 10 12 16 14 (7th level character)
14 12 15 13 14 10 (5th level character)
16 14 9 15 11 9 (5th level character)
Other than the abundance of 18's among the fighters, I don't have a particular problem with that. And in any event it is not particularly germane to the topic at hand and was recently discussed at great length in another thread.
The existance of feats giving the PC abundant magic items is an entirely different thing than a magic shop with a list of items readily available for general consumption. If the PC's got the feats and paid the XP, cost of materials, and found the time to equip themselves then more power to them.
There is any number of other individual points I'd like to respond to but this is already to much of a hodge podge of ideas.
Uller said:
Ain't that the truth!
Unless a GM wants to go randomly generating an evil NPC's "lifetime accumulated treaure" and knocking bits off of the "principle" each time a new "influx" is generated (based on expendiutures per encounter) ... it's only fair to let PC's do some buying of magic items.
Do I expect that tomean, there shoudl be shops specialising in magic items, in every city?
Hell no.
However, the armorer will likely keep a few sets of mundanely-magical (IOW, a + or two) armor about -- either new-made for his shop, or, bought from an adventurer who didn't need it.
The weaponsmith likely has a +1 sword, maybe a +2 hammer of impact, and so on. Not lots, but a couple choice items.
There robably ARE shop dealing especially in scrolls, potions, and ... (drum roll) spell components of all sorts. Why? Because those are stock-and-staple for spellcasters, and wherever you have spellcasters who have need s... yu have enterprising merchants seeking to earn a profit by FILLING those needs ... for whatever fee they dare charge.
Wondrous items, most likely to find as curios or emporiums in general, as "special selection" items. Or in the aforementioned potion-scroll-and-component shops.
A good bowyer probably has a few score +1 arrows to hand (along with a few score silvered arrows, a barrelful of masterworks, and a couplemagic bows).
An item here and there, suited to the mundane purpose of the shop -- it puts items on the market in general terms, but there's no one "WalMagic" franchise ...
And if you go to the armorer, and he hasn't exactly what you want ... well, you mgiht be able to COMMISSION it, through him. For, say, 2/3 down, the remaining 1/3 on delivery, and show me the money in full beore a single coin changes hands -- no refunds, no excuses, etc, etc. It'll probably take 2-3 times as long as if the party 'caster made it, but, then ... it's not costing the party direct time, nor XP (you CAN adventure while awaiting your new suit of armor, after all).
Swami said:
Oh, how wrong that is. The One Ring was not "a magic item" ... the one ring was THE major artifact ... we're talking, "Hand and Eye of Vecna, eat your heart out" artifact. Even if Frodo never figured out much beyond going invisible with it.
And then there were the other Great Rings.
Inm Sindarin:
Corf neledh 'nin Ellerain nui venel,
Odo'ni Nauhírath vi rynd gonui în,
Neder'ni Fîr Fírib beraid fíred,
Êr am Morchír bo morn-orchamm dîn
Vi Dor e-Mordor ias i-Ndúath caedar.
Er-chorf a thorthad hain bain, Er-chorf a chired hain,
Er-chorf a thoged hain bain a din fuin an nuded hain
Vi Dor e-Mordor ias i-Ndúath caedar.
Or, in English:
Three rings for the Elven Kings,
Under the Sky
Seven Rings for Dwarven Lords,
In their Halls of Stone
Nine rings for Mortal Men
Doomed to die
One ring to Rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them
In the land of Mordor, where the shadows lay.
(forgive me if I am in error on the precise wording, especially as regards the Elven rings; I haven't seen the entire poem in english since I was ... gosh, since I was twelve years old ... possibly before some of you folks were BORN ... gah now I feel old ...).
However, all in all, there were no less than TWENTY of the "great rings" ... and I distinctly remember in the books where Gandalf explains -- to Frodo I think -- that there are any number of "lesser" magical rings, but very few GREAT rings.
IOW, the One Ring is a major MAJOR artifact. The Rod of Seven Parts has NOTHING on the One Ring!
[edit: apologies if I sound snippish; any frustration showing through above is due to not finding the ENGLISH version online, but finding the sindarin "translation" no less than SIX times ... feh!! Anyway, no offense is intended.]
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Celebrim
Legend
And I still say Uller's complaint is ridiculous. If the DM doesn't want to give a +2 mace out, he doesn't have to. Next time the ubervillian can have a +2 bow instead of a magic greatsword, if the DM is feeling like rewarding the player with access (after suitable trials) to a magic bow.
"..the armorer.." Who is what, a 1st-5th level expert?
"..the weaponsmith.." Who is what, a 1st-5th level expert?
"..a good bowyer.." Alright, lets be generous and go for 7th level expert.
"a few score +1 arrows...and a couple magic bows...a +1 sword, maybe a +2 hammer of impact, and so on."
Sheesh. Look, if you want to run a magic is so common its mundane campaign, go ahead. I'm just saying it shocks the h3ll out of my 1st edition sensibilities. Besides which, it takes a 5th level spell caster to forge magic items. Are all the armorers, weaponsmiths, bowyers, and so forth in your world high level spell casters? And, if so, what level do you start your campaigns at and what level are average thugs like orcs and goblins?
On the other hand, a shop dealing in spell components is I feel perfectly reasonable. And I've never had that big of problem with potions, although 3rd. edition has really messed me up my setting by requiring spell casters rather than skill in Alchemy for Brew Potion (and I still haven't found a completely satisfactory alternative). And scrolls have always been easier and cheaper to create under both systems.
"..the armorer.." Who is what, a 1st-5th level expert?
"..the weaponsmith.." Who is what, a 1st-5th level expert?
"..a good bowyer.." Alright, lets be generous and go for 7th level expert.
"a few score +1 arrows...and a couple magic bows...a +1 sword, maybe a +2 hammer of impact, and so on."
Sheesh. Look, if you want to run a magic is so common its mundane campaign, go ahead. I'm just saying it shocks the h3ll out of my 1st edition sensibilities. Besides which, it takes a 5th level spell caster to forge magic items. Are all the armorers, weaponsmiths, bowyers, and so forth in your world high level spell casters? And, if so, what level do you start your campaigns at and what level are average thugs like orcs and goblins?
On the other hand, a shop dealing in spell components is I feel perfectly reasonable. And I've never had that big of problem with potions, although 3rd. edition has really messed me up my setting by requiring spell casters rather than skill in Alchemy for Brew Potion (and I still haven't found a completely satisfactory alternative). And scrolls have always been easier and cheaper to create under both systems.
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Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Um... do you use Google?
I did a search on "three rings" "elven kings" and it came up first on the list... and numerous other times...
-Hyp.
