Anthony Valterra vs. Tracy Hickman

[Lord Ravinous]

I simply mean, this will simply give them yet another thing to rant and rave about. Yeah they've done made up they're mind, but this is the kinda thing (IMO) that could win them "converts" in people that could possibly have an open mind about the game in the begining, but as soon as they hear of this product, or better yet hear the Anti-D&D frontman (the name escapes me) twist it around to his lovely world view, they'll prolly agree w/ him to some extent.

I guess what I'm sayin' is that theres alot of kids out there that'd love to play D&D, but can't because they're parents think its evil, and isn't "healthy", this book IN NO WAY helps their situation a single bit. Because I'm sure that parents like that would not attempt to understand what OGC/OGL is, or let alone care, they'd form they're opinion of this product, or let it bolster their already standing opinion.

 

[Henry]

Because I'm sure that parents like that would not attempt to understand what OGC/OGL is, or let alone care, they'd form they're opinion of this product, or let it bolster their already standing opinion.

They don't have to understand the difference between D&D and the OGL, they just have to understand the difference between Cinema and Pornography. The product is not from the producers of D&D, and has no connection with them. Two conditions will hold true:

1. People who can think clearly and rationally about this cannot connect it to D&D.

2. People who would associate it with D&D will likely already dislike the game.

 

[Lord Ravinous]

1. People who can think clearly and rationally about this cannot connect it to D&D.

2. People who would associate it with D&D will likely already dislike the game.

I'm not saying that this is gonna change the minds of people who wholefully hate D&D, but for a 15yr. old kid trying to talk his "unsure" parents into buying him a Player's Handbook for Dungeons and Dragons because "It's not bad like everyone says Paw..." Is gonna have a hard time convincing them of this with a book titled Erotic Fantasy-"for use with Dungeons and Dragons" staring em in the face, they'll be like "hell no", but then the dad'll prolly pick it up after he sends his son back to the car, and ask for the price.

 

[Drakron]

D&D reputation still is of being a "geek thing", not of "woshiping devils things".

The Anti-D&D movement got some atencion some years ago but I think most people forgot about it.

Another thing D&D is not a "kids game", to start its a expensive hobby and I doubt many parents are willing to spend a inicial $90 just to cover the basics (DMG, PHB and MM) ... sure its last a long time (until a new edition comes out or its "revised") but at young age many just want something, play it for a week and then forget all about it.

And that is in english countries alone, in other countries the players need a good grasp of the english language so they can understand the game rules.

Besides all the anti-D&D groups are still out there, the media is the one that (as usual) give then atencion until it becames "last week news" and moved into other things (like the internet and "the year of -insert potencial killing thing here-") that were more "in trend".

Now since WotC is part of Hasbro and Hasbro is the giant we all know, you can imagine that networks are not very keen in harming their biggest ad payers and even if they do the anti-D&D group already show then are usual "parents that blame something because they failed as parents" (B.A.D.D.) and "religious fanatics that if given half the chance would turn the country into a religious state".

When BovD come out I expected something from their side but to my suprise I seen nothing, sure that their sites must had something but the book cause more problems within the D&D players community (with fears of anti-D&D rising up and the usual "I dont use it so I dont want to exit" ... and the "I have not read it but because it says "mature content" it must be immature and so bad) that elsewere, including the anti-D&D movements that appear to have missed the book.

D&D simply is a "known" (<- key word ) niche market and with the advent of the d20 OGL revolution, no company can affort to try to comply with the standarts of non D&D players since its 7 dogs after one bone, if people want to use mature or immature things, they will use it ... they dont need a book to be a immature players or use mature ciontent.

Games just supply rules, morality they cannot since as rules are objects ... moral concepts are subjective.

 

[Mallus]

For me to walk into a game store and tell owner "I won't shop here if you continue to sell Product X" is in no way dictating what is proper at -your- gaming table, nor is it deciding what you should want.

I don't want to come off as hostile, its really not my intent, but why isn't simply not purchasing material you find objectionable/offensive enough? Its surely your right to exert a little economic pressure on the retailer, but what are you trying to accomplish?

I have, in effect, boycotted a store for selling product I don't like. This doesn't affect anyone's elses right to decide what and where to shop. The store owner has to decide if his adult-comic profits make up for the lack of game sales to me and others like me.

Yup, its a bit of a boycott. You can shop where you want, but your intention here is to limit other consumers access to materials you don't personally like. Why? Others like me wouldn't do the same to you. Find value in what you will...

Shopping at a store that sells product X is, in a small way, supporting product X.

This argument is so problematic for me. What are its limits? For instance, if I buy a Stephen King novel at Waldenbooks am I, in a small way, supporting Islam, since the Q'uran is also for sale there?

The marketplace {both of ideas and stuff} will always contain items I don't support. And if I want my access to the things I support to be unfettered, then I best support unfettered access for others to things I don't like.

 

[herald]

"for use with Dungeons and Dragons"

But it won't say that on the book because It can't. OGL/D20 STL don't allow for it.

 

[EricNoah]

But it won't say that on the book because It can't. OGL/D20 STL don't allow for it.

Actually, per the D20 STL (which in turn references the Logo Guide)...

Mandatory Trademark Use:

You must include, visibly and in a readable size, on the cover or back cover (or title page of works without covers) of the Covered Product, one or more of the following text blocks:

"Requires the use of the Dungeons & Dragons(R) Player's Handbook, Third Edition, published by Wizards of the Coast, Inc.”

or

“Requires the use of the Dungeons & Dragons(R), Third Edition Core Books, published by Wizards of the Coast, Inc.”

or

“Requires the use of the Dungeons & Dragons(R), Third Edition Core Books, and the Psionics Handbook, published by Wizards of the Coast, Inc.”

or

“Requires the use of the d20 Modern(tm) Roleplaying Game, published by Wizards of the Coast, Inc.”

or

“Requires the use of a Roleplaying Game Core Book published by Wizards of the Coast, Inc.”

And a couple of other permutations....

http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/d20guide.rtf

 

[Bendris Noulg]

I'm not making my point clear. For me to walk into a game store and tell owner "I won't shop here if you continue to sell Product X" is in no way dictating what is proper at -your- gaming table, nor is it deciding what you should want.

But it is. What you're telling the store owner is that your tastes should be catered too and that mine should be rejected or he's going to loose business. So no, you aren't stating it to me directly, but your intention of action is clear and undeniable.

Consider a second example. Near me there are two game stores. One, Gamechest is in a mall and is kid-friendly. They didn't stock BOVD. The other, GenX, has a huge rack of anime-teen-furry-adult comics. They are both equally far from where I work and I can only visit one in my lunch hour. I'll visit the kid-friendly store because adult-furry comics is not something I want to deal with after I just ate. I have, in effect, boycotted a store for selling product I don't like. This doesn't affect anyone's elses right to decide what and where to shop. The store owner has to decide if his adult-comic profits make up for the lack of game sales to me and others like me.

Judging by the continued sales of BoVD, Vertigo and other mature comics, I'd say that they do.

Shopping at a store that sells product X is, in a small way, supporting product X. What I'm trying to say in all this is that, while I am required to allow anyone the right to print Product X, I cannot be -required- to support it.

I find your judgement entirely misplaced. For instance, I think that an over-abundance of make-up, perfume and coilogne are a perpetual waste of time, yet every department store I go to sells them, and my wife continues to use the first two. However, I'm not going to stop shopping at stores that sell them, nor am I going to stop sleeping with my wife. If you don't like a product, don't buy it. I pass up WotC product all the time for being power-gamer pandering crap, but I still buy the products from them I like.

I'm not condemning it, I don't really care. I was just talking about a situation where I do care about some future Product X. This Erotic Fantasy book is definately third tier. It will come and go without much notice from anyone.

It seems to get a lot of attention from uptight chest-beaters at the moment.

I just don't see the big demand.

I think there are a lot of fans of Heavy Metal and other adult fantasy stories to justify the creation of this book.

 

[herald]

Actually, per the D20 STL (which in turn references the Logo Guide)...



And a couple of other permutations....

http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/d20guide.rtf

My comment stands.

There is a differance between "For use with..."

And "requires use of..."

One implies endorsement.

The other doesn't.

At this point I haven't seen "for use with yet."

If however this changes, I would expect the loophole closed shortly.

Granted, this may seem like splitting hairs, but that's what legalise is about.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Actually, per the D20 STL (which in turn references the Logo Guide)...

Actually, the press release doesn't mention the d20STL. It does specifically mention Open Gaming several times, however. I'm inclined to believe that this game, much like Arcana Unearthed, is going to be self-contained and not related to D&D other than by its mechanic engine.