Anti-Grapple Tactics

[Nvvyn]

Two words.. "Gutbuster Brigade"

If you've ever read the Drizzt series, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[Paederon]

Thanks for all the ideas... the next encounter should be, interesting. I don't fault the player for using his tactics. If roles were reversed I wish I could come up with something like this. However, I have a very special encounter planned for him, and I don't want it to fall apart because of this oft repeated tactic.

[edit: Oops. ]

I think the root cause of my problem is the tumble skill. With a tumble check of 15, you can tumble 20 feet w/o drawing an attack of opportunity. Given a tumble of 14+, this means they can tumble past an enemy line as their move w/o difficulty ( a 1 on a skill check would only give them a 5% chance of failure at this maneuver ).

So, once past the enemy line ( or horde, or whatever ), he gets his attack on the enemy caster. The caster can't be right behind the line because one of the PCs has a weapon with reach. So then its the monk and the caster with a low attack, who isn't gonna land a hit most of the time... and the caster is out.

Definately 2 rogue body guards will be added to the next encounter... possibly with rings/potions of invis. An illusion or other trick in there as well.

Hmm, maybe I should make a feat or skill that allows AoO against tumbling characters... or at leasts raises the incredibly easy 15DC.

Or maybe I missed some errata somewhere...

 

[Gargoyle]

Thanks for all the ideas... the next encounter should be, interesting. I don't fault the player for using his tactics. If roles were reversed I wish I could come up with something like this. However, I have a very special encounter planned for him, and I don't want it to fall apart because of this oft repeated tactic.

[edit: Oops. ]

I think the root cause of my problem is the tumble skill. With a tumble check of 15, you can tumble 20 feet w/o drawing an attack of opportunity. Given a tumble of 14+, this means they can tumble past an enemy line as their move w/o difficulty ( a 1 on a skill check would only give them a 5% chance of failure at this maneuver ).

Actually you don't automatically fail on a natural "1" for skill checks, so the problem is worse than you thought.

So, once past the enemy line ( or horde, or whatever ), he gets his attack on the enemy caster. The caster can't be right behind the line because one of the PCs has a weapon with reach. So then its the monk and the caster with a low attack, who isn't gonna land a hit most of the time... and the caster is out.

Definately 2 rogue body guards will be added to the next encounter... possibly with rings/potions of invis. An illusion or other trick in there as well.

Hmm, maybe I should make a feat or skill that allows AoO against tumbling characters... or at leasts raises the incredibly easy 15DC.

Or maybe I missed some errata somewhere...

No, but there is a variant rule that WOTC published somewhere. Instead of a DC of 15 for tumbling checks, you can make tumbling opposed by the creature's attack roll. I use it to avoid the automatic success of tumbling at higher levels.

Edit: Looked it up, and there are three variants, all different than what I'm using. I'm not sure where I saw the tumble check opposed by an attack roll that I use. The WOTC variants are in Sword and Fist on page 69 and two others on page 37 of Song and Silence.

Sword and Fist variant is that if you try to use Tumble to get past a creature with the Tumble skill, then they can oppose it. Creatures without Tumble can't oppose it though.

In Song and Silence, they have two variants, one is a table of circumstance penalties, like -2 for bad lighting, -6 for standing water, etc. The other is allowing a Reflex save at the DC of the tumbler's Tumble check, with a +10 bonus if the tumbler is moving through the same square.

 

[Dog Faced God]

I use Monte Cook's variant for tumble:

Opposed Rolls

It makes much more sense that a 10th level rogue (even with max ranks in Tumble) would have an easier time tumbling past say a 1st level Adept than tumbling past a 20th level Barbarian.

 

[The_lone_gunman]

Remember also that while it is DC15 to tumble through a threated space, it is DC 25 to tumble through a square occupied by an enemy.

Some options you have:

a) Halberd wielding guards protect the mage, spaced 10' away from him.
b) Armor spikes
c) Contengency spells (cast spell X whenever I am grappled)
d) High escape artist skills (ring of escape artist +30)
e) remember teleport only has a verbal component
f) Project image
g) blink spell

Also remember that if the monk is constantly tumbling way away from the rest of the party to attack that mage 150' down the corridor, that it would be easy for him to be quickly overwhelmed-driven off by a bunch of "extra" guards in the back.


TLG

 

[Greybar]

Don't forget the Close Quarters Fighting feat (Sword and Fist).

I gave this to a enemy fighter just to see if it would dissuade a player in my game who is also very good at grappling. However, I certainly am not going to make it an always thing. As people have pointed out, if the player has developed a "signature move" then there is no good reason to punish them for it.

In my world there are a large group of bad beasties with Improved Grab, so there are going to be fighters out there with Close Quarters Fighting.

Something else to watch out for, from my players:
The PC Wizard puts a fly spell on the ranger, who zips over and grapples the lead opponent, then heads a couple hundred feet up while calling for the opponent to surrender or drop. It's a good team tactic, and so it's fine with me that it works as long as I don't seem to lose every good villain to it...

John

 

[reapersaurus]

Yes, there are 2 main problems I would guess are the root of your problem.

1) The Tumble skill as written in the PHB is broken.
It is one of the most well-known skills that just doesn't work as written.
Use one of the variants for the Tumble skill, and that should help.
There is NO WAY a person should be able to jump and roll past an entire line of defenders with impunity.

2) It doesn't sound like you are using the Grapple maneuver right?
He shouldn't be grappling with impunity.
If he gets hit with a simple AoO, it spoils the entire move and he's sitting there like a dummy.
And I really doubt if he's specialized so much that he can overcome the +4 or more that larger sized creatures get to the grapple, not to mention the Strength bonus difference.
You mentioned that he grapples Large golems and such?

Can you explain what feats and attributes this monk brings to bear that makes him better than other creatures at Grappling?

 

[reapersaurus]

The PC Wizard puts a fly spell on the ranger, who zips over and grapples the lead opponent, then heads a couple hundred feet up while calling for the opponent to surrender or drop.

AFAIK, this shouldn't work.
What part of grappling let's the grappler dictate the grapplee's movement and position?

Answer: Nothing.
(that I'm aware of)

The grappler is stuck there, like a paralyzed man, as long as he is struggling to keep the grapple going with his grapplee.

 

[Will]

Uh, question... couldn't a line of enemies just do ready attacks, and nail the guy as he goes by?

Whether via grapple/trip/...


Sounds perfect to me. It's similar to the same sort of situation as a line of men setting against a charge.

Sure, they don't get an AoO, and if they've already acted, no joy. But otherwise...

 

[Magus the Purifier]

Large and in Charge feat from SaF. Keep knocking him back every time he gets hit. Let Go of Me epic spell. Grappler takes 20d6. Psuedonatural Cyclops we fought kept hitting with its tentacles and grappling with like a +40 to his roll (something like that) Then when we were grappled the tentacles would do 2d4 con per tentacle. Our paladin took 12d4 con in 1 round. Needless to say he died.