Anti-Grapple Tactics

[Greybar]

Reaperasarus:
"Using a fly spell requires as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally."
I would say that includes grappling.

"The subject of a fly spell ... cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load..."
So if you're strong, that maximum load might well include an opponent, particularly if you don't wear much in the way of equipment and armor yourselft (like, say, a monk).

Now, the fact that the flying grappler is using all of their strength to fight gravity's grip on the victim might well suggest a circumstance bonus to the victim wriggling free. And if they can do that after one move aloft, they'd only be 3d6 damage worth of up. (half speed when gaining altitude, 60" when flying encumbered.)

John

 

[Dog Faced God]

Reaperasarus:
"Using a fly spell requires as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally."
I would say that includes grappling.

"The subject of a fly spell ... cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load..."
So if you're strong, that maximum load might well include an opponent, particularly if you don't wear much in the way of equipment and armor yourselft (like, say, a monk).

Now, the fact that the flying grappler is using all of their strength to fight gravity's grip on the victim might well suggest a circumstance bonus to the victim wriggling free. And if they can do that after one move aloft, they'd only be 3d6 damage worth of up. (half speed when gaining altitude, 60" when flying encumbered.)

John

There is no mechanic for moving around while grappling whether you're flying or not. If you look under the description of grapple (PHB page 137) you'll notice that moving is not an option while grappling. IMC a successful grapple check allows you to move 1/2 your base move.

I would give the victim of the flying grappler a serious circumstance bonus to his check as the flyer is giving up a substantial amount of leverage.

 

[Jarval]

[Blatant plug for own work]

I developed a spell for just these occasions...

Quills
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wis 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level
You grow spikes from your body. These spikes deal 1d4 points of damage on an unarmed attack, or 1d8 points of damage on a successful grappling attack. Anyone foolish enough to grapple you will take 1d8 points of damage for each round the grapple is maintained. You are considered armed while making unarmed attacks for the duration of this spell.

[/plug]

 

[smetzger]

1) Check out Devoted Defender in S&F
2) Dress the enemy monk in Wizard's robes.
3) Any Large creature should be a challenging grapple.

 

[Greybar]

Hmm.. very good counter-arguments. Dog Faced God and Reaperasaurus have just about convinced me I can/should stop the flying grapple manuever. Never let it be said I wouldn't listen to reason. [grin]

I guess I just think of the fly as being entirely mentally driven, so physical activity shouldn't break it. But the concentration part is what's important. I think I will ascribe a -4 Circumstance penalty in the future, with the victim getting a chance to degrapple at the instant the grappler tries to hoist.

This actually has a lot of impact on flying monsters as well. Some have extraordinary abilities (such as the Roc's Snatch), but that is also for one size class smaller and an inherently flying creature.

thanks for the thought provoking, guys!

John

 

[reapersaurus]

Never let it be said I wouldn't listen to reason. [grin]

thanks for the thought provoking, guys!

Glad you're listening to reason, John.
Seriously.

But I should make clear that moving while grappling, whether it be to drag the guy over to a cliff and jump off with him, or to fly him up againt his will, is NOT an argument, or thought-provoking discussion.

It's the rules of 3E which do not allow this grapple-and-fly maneuver.
The grapple rules on page 137 are quite specific.
It does not say you may make your opponent move against his will, so you can not do it.
The only way you can move an opponent in 3E is to use a Bull Rush, Improved Shield Bash, or things like high winds or the Knockback enchantment from MoF.

 

[Gizzard]

OTOH, Improved Grab specifically says that you can move if you can drag the opponents weight. Improved Grab is a Grapple move at its heart, so, to me, this sets a stonger precedent than, "It does not say you may make your opponent move against his will, so you can not do it."

I imagine it falls to "DM's judgement". In that case, I'm not sure what I would rule about the Flying Grapple. I might even be inclined to rule differently for things that had non-magical flight (wings) vs. things that flew due to magic (rangers.) Certainly size would be a consideration - you can argue that a Stone Giant who grapples a Halfling cant move with him because it doesnt explictly say so in the rules, but I think thats going overboard.

In any case, I wouldnt let the flying Ranger just drop an enemy for free; he'd have to somehow break that enemies hold on him. Probably using the standard "Break a Pin" rules in the Grapple section.

 

[Greybar]

Ah, I'll complicate matters then by adding that the character in question in my game is of a catlike race, for whom Improved Grab is a racial ability (like that of the great cats in the MM).

That's another reason why he's been so willing to Pounce, Hit both claws, grapple via Improved Grab and go! It makes great sense within the character concept ...

John

 

[Kugar]

Now there is one power I found to be worth some ECLs - Pounce. Stupid weretiger.
Improved grab is not that overpowering. Remember that unless the creature (PC) takes the -20 on the grapple check they are considered grappled also. I rule that you can only move creatures you pin, or creatures you sucessfully grapple with the -20, and this give an opertunity for an escape artist check.

Kugar

 

[Squire James]

Humans, who generally lack tentacles to allow for grappling with reach, have a 0' reach when grappling. This is why the activity provokes an AoO, and being a monk does nothing to stop this. I should also note that it provokes an AoO from everyone who threatens that 5' square he moved from to initiate the grapple.

So spellcasters are advised to have a couple of bodyguards to stand BESIDE him to deter grapplers, as well as the ones in front (who should at least be forcing DC 25 Tumble checks).

Also, Oil of Slipperiness is in the DMG for a reason.