Antimagic and Orbs

[schporto]

I'm looking for some opinions here as I'm not convinced the rules are clear on this.
The spell 'antimagic field' says "The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result."
The description of antimagic from DMG says "No supernatural ability, spell-like ability, or spell works in an area of antimagic (but extraordinary abilities still work)." Then lists dijunction, wall of force, and prismatic spehere/wall as uneffected.
So those infamous orb of X spells and all the mass cure X spells are instantaneous cojurations.
By the spell listing they should work (the instantaneous conjuration bit). But by the DMG listing they should not (all spells stopped except for XYZ).
So by the rules (PHB, DMG, complete arcane)...
Can someone cast an orb spell (or mass cure) into an antimagic field?
Can someone in an antimagic field cast an orb or mass cure spell out?

-cpd

 

[Thanee]

Can someone cast an orb spell (or mass cure) into an antimagic field?

Orb Spells: I think so.
Mass Cure: Nope, since it's targeted, and the AMF breaks line of effect.

It's not entirely clear as you say, and a point could be made, that there must be some magic involved in the transportation of the elemental or force material to keep it in shape and everything, though.

Can someone in an antimagic field cast an orb or mass cure spell out?

No, you cannot cast spells in an antimagic field. Unless you are an initiate of Mystra, that is.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Fieari]

Not only can you toss an orb into an antimagic field, but the orb doesn't go away once you hit someone with it. It's a permanent creation.

And yes, the orb of force is a non-magical orb of magical force. Go figure.

Just one of the sundry reasons orb spells are banned in my games.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I've never understood the thinking behind making healing spells conjuration in 3.0/3.5 edition. What am I conjuring? Flesh? That doesn't make any sense since these spells are supposed to work via positive energy.

Sorry, kinda off topic there. But yeah, orb spells can be cast into an antimagic field, and is one of the few options a mage has in dealing with an enemy employing one. A warlock's vitriolic blast would also work since it is also an instant conjuration effect.

 

[MarkB]

And yes, the orb of force is a non-magical orb of magical force. Go figure.

Actually, since wall of force is one of the exceptions called out in the spell description, there is a precedent for force effects persisting in an AMF.

I've never understood the thinking behind making healing spells conjuration in 3.0/3.5 edition. What am I conjuring? Flesh? That doesn't make any sense since these spells are supposed to work via positive energy.

Then presumably that's what you're conjuring. Rather than evoking a form of energy from, essentially, nowhere, as you can with Fire or Electricity effects, you're channeling positive energy from the positive energy plane as a conjuration effect.

 

[Geoff Watson]

Can someone cast an orb spell (or mass cure) into an antimagic field?
Can someone in an antimagic field cast an orb or mass cure spell out?

-cpd

No to both.

The bit about instantaneous cures is so that the PCs don't die when the magic is supressed and all the damage they've ever had cured comes back.

Orbs only bypass SR, they aren't specifically allowed by the antimagic field. Other 'No SR' spells like Summon Monster are noted as being suppressed.

Geoff.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Orbs only bypass SR, they aren't specifically allowed by the antimagic field. Other 'No SR' spells like Summon Monster are noted as being suppressed.

Nobody's claiming that they aren't suppressed because they don't allow SR.

They're claiming they aren't suppressed because they're the effect of an instantaneous conjuration.

Summon Monster is a Conjuration (Summoning) with a duration. Orb of Acid is an instantaneous Conjuration (Creation). The two are wholly different.

Summon Monster is completely unrelated to the rule quoted earlier: The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.

Orb of Acid, however, is a conjuration of instantaneous duration, which creates its effect (one orb of acid) such that it shoots from your palm. If your palm is outside the AMF, the spell can be cast so as to cause its effect to appear. Once that has happened, the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result (one orb of acid), and that result is not affected by an antimagic field.

The same rule does not apply to the Cure spells, because while they are instantaneous conjurations, they are not instantaneous conjurations that have an effect; they are instantaneous conjurations that have a target.

-Hyp.

 

[TheGogmagog]

Orb of Acid, however, is a conjuration of instantaneous duration, which creates its effect (one orb of acid) such that it shoots from your palm. If your palm is outside the AMF, the spell can be cast so as to cause its effect to appear.

Fortunatly, Core Mechanics prevent this from happening. You occupy a 5x5 square, the AMF effects that square or not. To stick your hand out, you need to move into the next square in which you are no longer in the AMF.

Now, if you favor more 'logic' applied to your D&D magic. :\ then the AMF is a sphere, and doesn't completely fill your 5x5(x6)cube allowing you to stick a hand out. The core rules still provide some protection in this case, since you can only move before or after your standard action of casting. So you can move partially out (20% cover to magic effects if I recall the mechanics without looking it up). So you are still vulnerable to targeting spells, and are only offered +4 to reflex saves (Again IIRC), until your next turn where you can cast again and then move back into the AMF for full cover.

Of course, there is then the variant degrees of cover where you could say it's an arrow slit 90% cover (IIRC) to touch attachs, +8 to reflex saves but still allow you to be targeted. Or the argument that moving within the square isn't technically a move.

All of which is why I stick with the AMF occupies a square or doesn't. My 'D&D Logic' explanation is that conjuring (evoking or whatever) a spell requires not only your whole body/mind/soul but the natural energies surrounding you (in a convienient 5x5 cube weave).

 

[glass]

Fortunatly, Core Mechanics prevent this from happening. You occupy a 5x5 square, the AMF effects that square or not. To stick your hand out, you need to move into the next square in which you are no longer in the AMF.

How does that in any way invalidate what Hyp said? There are infinitely many squares where you (and your palm) are outside any gven AMF, from which you can potentially cast you non-magical orb of magical force into the AMF. EDIT: Dozens of which are in range, too!

Yes, it is ridculous, but thet's why the Orbs shouldn't have been Conjuration in the first place, but since they are...



glass.

 

[MarkB]

Fortunatly, Core Mechanics prevent this from happening. You occupy a 5x5 square, the AMF effects that square or not. To stick your hand out, you need to move into the next square in which you are no longer in the AMF.

I don't think Hyp was attempting to suggest it as a means of firing Orbs out of the AMF.