Antimagic and Orbs

[Al'Kelhar]

...These spells are blatent buff the conjurer spells and make no sense within the internal mechanics of the school or the few consistant premises of the D&D magic system.

I agree with someone above. One of the many reasons I don't allow the Orb spells in any of my games.

DC

I agree with Hyp's interpretation of the RAW. Which leads to, IMO, unsatisfying results. The energy orb spells aren't there to buff the Conjuration spells, they're there because WoTC realised what a crappy mechanic SR is, and had to figure out a way around it. Rather than fix the underlying mechanic, they used a "work around", i.e. "let's create some spells which cause energy damage but aren't affected by SR". I allow the energy orb spells IMC, but they're all Evocation spells which are affected by SR.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[kerbarian]

Spells do not function within the AMF. Producing the Effect (like One summoned creature, or An orb of acid) is part of the spell's function.

Ah, okay -- the line "it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines". It seems reasonable that a spell "functions" to create its effects before those effects are in place, and that that's prevented by the AMF wording.

If that's the key phrase, though, does that mean that a demon's spell-like ability of greater teleport would work in an AMF? It's not a spell or magic item, and it's a conjuration with instantaneous duration. What about a (Su) instantaneous conjuration effect, if there is such a thing?

It would hang around doing what non-magical lightning does.

A non-magical orb of acid will presumably seep into the ground. A non-magical orb of fire will gutter out for lack of fuel. A non-magical orb of electricity will ground out. A non-magical orb of force will, I would assume, sit there being impervious to just about everything and tripping up passing ethereal filchers.

You didn't mention an orb of cold. I'd say that one is a pretty good argument for why the orbs can't be nonmagical. A 3" sphere of nonmagical cold would have to be cold something. If it's nonmagical cold air, it couldn't possibly deal 15d6 damage, even if it's at absolute zero. That wouldn't even noticably hurt a child of 1hp.

Orb of sound is also fairly compelling. If you create an 3" orb of sound, there's no way it could travel through the air to its target intact without magic. A 3" sphere of nonmagical compression waves in the air also couldn't deal any significant damage.

There's obviously no reference for what nonmagical orbs of force would do, but here's an interesting thought: If they hang around after the spell, can you use them as thrown weapons or in a large sling to deal force damage? Could you embed them in a stick and make a club that deals force damage?

It's consistent with the spell description and the description of instantaneous conjuration (creation) spells to say that the orb is being continually conjured over the course of its entire flight path (since the flight and impact all happen within the instantaneous duration). That would explain how orbs of cold and sound could deal damage -- at the end of the flight path, the cold or sound are being magically conjured in contact with (or inside) the target's body. After the spell ends, they'd dissipate like nonmagical cold and sound, not dealing any further damage.

IMO, continuous conjuration over the flight path gives a more reasonable explanation for the functioning of Orb spells, I believe it's completely consistent with the RAW, and it would lead to the conclusion that Orb spells can't penetrate an AMF, in the same way that mass cure spells can't.

The reasonableness of it is, of course, a matter of opinion, but do you see anything in that interpretation that conflicts with the RAW?

 

[Hypersmurf]

If that's the key phrase, though, does that mean that a demon's spell-like ability of greater teleport would work in an AMF? It's not a spell or magic item, and it's a conjuration with instantaneous duration. What about a (Su) instantaneous conjuration effect, if there is such a thing?

The space within the field is impervious to Sp and Su as well.

You didn't mention an orb of cold. I'd say that one is a pretty good argument for why the orbs can't be nonmagical. A 3" sphere of nonmagical cold would have to be cold something. If it's nonmagical cold air, it couldn't possibly deal 15d6 damage, even if it's at absolute zero. That wouldn't even noticably hurt a child of 1hp.

You're talking about a world where a non-magical person can be submerged in non-magical lava and conceivably walk away. Traditional physics isn't necessarily applicable.

We know that the spell creates a non-magical orb of cold that deals 15d6 damage to a creature it strikes. The flavour text for how that happens is negotiable. Call it conjuring matter from the Paraelemental Plane of Ice, if you like. Perhaps it creates air even colder than absolute zero - complete nonsense in our world, naturally, but then so is a lava dip...

There's obviously no reference for what nonmagical orbs of force would do, but here's an interesting thought: If they hang around after the spell, can you use them as thrown weapons or in a large sling to deal force damage? Could you embed them in a stick and make a club that deals force damage?

The orb deals a total of Xd6 points of force damage. If it deals Xd6, and then you throw it from a sling, dealing any more force damage would exceed that total...

It's consistent with the spell description and the description of instantaneous conjuration (creation) spells to say that the orb is being continually conjured over the course of its entire flight path...

What? No, it isn't... 'being continually conjured' doesn't fit with the idea of instantaneous conjuration at all!

The orb appears at your palm. Once it's appeared, it's obviously been created; at that point the conjuration is complete, so how can it continue to be created?

-Hyp.

 

[MarkB]

What? No, it isn't... 'being continually conjured' doesn't fit with the idea of instantaneous conjuration at all!

The orb appears at your palm. Once it's appeared, it's obviously been created; at that point the conjuration is complete, so how can it continue to be created?

-Hyp.

By D&D terminology, any spell whose effects are completely resolved during the turn on which it is cast is considered Instantaneous in duration. Since an Orb is cast, flies to its target, and strikes that target all as part of the same single action, it could be supported, propelled and held together by magic over the entire course of its journey from your palm to its destination, and still be considered an Instantaneous effect in D&D terms.

 

[DreamChaser]

If by 'permanent' you mean '1 round/level (D)', then I agree completely.

-Hyp.

LMAO. Yes. That is exactly what I meant.

 

[kerbarian]

The space within the field is impervious to Sp and Su as well.

It's "impervious to most magical effects" (including Sp and Su), with the exception stated later that "The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field".

You're talking about a world where a non-magical person can be submerged in non-magical lava and conceivably walk away. Traditional physics isn't necessarily applicable.

It's true that the D&D rules do an imperfect job of representing physics, but they do try to represent real physics. In your example, the D&D rules for lava would result in the immediate death 99.9%+ of humans who are submerged in it. Some edge cases may not be realistic, but the typical effect of lava on humans in the D&D rules is about what I'd expect from real physics.

Making the orb spells work as nonmagical would require amazing contortions of physics in some cases (e.g. an orb of fire would have to be plasma of nuclear temperatures which travels to its target within microseconds to avoid exploding in the caster's face -- it clearly couldn't appear as an orb of flames with a visible travel time as described in the spell) and is flat-out impossible in other cases (orb of cold or sound).

I'm not saying that my interpretation is the only possible one -- I'm just saying that it's consistent with the RAW and is, IMO, a more plausible explanation for the spell's effects than the interpretation that the conjuration is complete when the orb is still at the caster's palm.

Your interpretation is also consistent with the RAW -- you just have to make up lots of non-real-world physics for it to work.

The orb deals a total of Xd6 points of force damage. If it deals Xd6, and then you throw it from a sling, dealing any more force damage would exceed that total...

If I conjure a wall of stone, break off a chunk, and bash someone over the head with it, does it not deal damage just because the spell doesn't mention it? Orb of Force doesn't say anything about the properties of the nonmagical orb that's left over -- it just states how much damage is dealt directly by the spell. If we go with your interpretation that the leftover orb is forever incapable of dealing more damage, though, what happens if I cover the underside of a 20-ton stone block with orbs of force and drop it on someone? Does it not deal damage? What if I cover my body with orbs of force and then let ogres bash me with clubs? Still no damage?

Incidentally, my interpretation also avoids this messy problem. Just say that the normal behavior of a nonmagical orb of force is to immediately wink out of existence. The conjuration keeps it around for the instantaneous duration of the spell (including the impact against the target), and then the spell ends and the leftover, nonmagical orb winks out.

What? No, it isn't... 'being continually conjured' doesn't fit with the idea of instantaneous conjuration at all!

The conjuration is complete by the end of the instantaneous duration. What doesn't fit about that?

The orb appears at your palm. Once it's appeared, it's obviously been created; at that point the conjuration is complete, so how can it continue to be created?

An orb appears at your palm -- that means that the conjuration has had at least some effect at that point, but that doesn't mean it's complete. Per the description of instantaneous conjuration (creation) spells, the orb is "assembled through magic". There's nothing that says that process happens in zero time. Plenty of other instantaneous duration spells involve a sequence of events that take noticable time -- e.g. fireball, which involves a bead that travels to the target location and then explodes, all during the instantaneous duration.

 

[Fieari]

By D&D terminology, any spell whose effects are completely resolved during the turn on which it is cast is considered Instantaneous in duration. Since an Orb is cast, flies to its target, and strikes that target all as part of the same single action, it could be supported, propelled and held together by magic over the entire course of its journey from your palm to its destination, and still be considered an Instantaneous effect in D&D terms.

Except that the rules for instantaneous conjurations specifically deny that.

Making the orb spells work as nonmagical would require amazing contortions of physics in some cases (e.g. an orb of fire would have to be plasma of nuclear temperatures which travels to its target within microseconds to avoid exploding in the caster's face -- it clearly couldn't appear as an orb of flames with a visible travel time as described in the spell) and is flat-out impossible in other cases (orb of cold or sound).

So you're saying that these spells stretch your suspension of disbelief beyond the breaking point. That's a perfectly reasonable position, and one I share. As such, the orb spells do not exist in my games.

Doesn't change the fact that the RAW says what it says, even if it is stupid. Should be and are are two different things. It SHOULD makes sense, but it doesn't. So don't let it in your game! It's a supplement for crying out loud!

 

[kerbarian]

Except that the rules for instantaneous conjurations specifically deny that.

[edit -- noticed MarkB's wording, so I'm addressing that]
I agree that MarkB's wording of "propelled and held together by magic" is inconsistent with the description of instantaneous conjuration (creation) spells, but the basic idea of the entire flight path and impact being part of the instantaneous duration is valid. My interpretation is that the assembly of the orb by magic continues all the way through the impact -- I don't see anything about that that conflicts with the description of instantaneous conjuration (creation) spells.

So you're saying that these spells stretch your suspension of disbelief beyond the breaking point. That's a perfectly reasonable position, and one I share. As such, the orb spells do not exist in my games.

Doesn't change the fact that the RAW says what it says, even if it is stupid. Should be and are are two different things. It SHOULD makes sense, but it doesn't. So don't let it in your game! It's a supplement for crying out loud!

I'm saying that there are (at least) two valid interpretations of the Orb spells, both consistent with the RAW. I find one of them more believable than the other, so that's the one I'm going with. It also happens that that interpretation results in Orbs not penetrating an AMF.

 

[Fieari]

Creation: A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates (subject to the limits noted above). If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.

It specifically mentions that if the spell has a duration, than your interpretation applies. Magic keeps creating it, sustaining it. It then goes on to say that if the duration is instantaneous, this does not happen. It's created once.

 

[kerbarian]

It specifically mentions that if the spell has a duration, than your interpretation applies. Magic keeps creating it, sustaining it. It then goes on to say that if the duration is instantaneous, this does not happen. It's created once.

Ah, you got to it first. I noticed his wording and addressed that in an edit to my previous post just a second ago. You're right that his wording isn't appropriate for instantaneous conjuration (creation) spells, but the basic idea is still valid.