Antimagic and Orbs

[schporto]

My issue is that the DMG never mentions the 'instantaneous conjuration' exception. Only those specific spells (wall of force, prismatic etc). By the way this arguement is going then, I expect that everyone takes the PHB spell description as superceding then the DMG effect description.

Also, by the arguments made here... If the group agrees that the orb spell creates a permanent object then it bypasses AMF, otherwise it does not.

Do those two points sum up the arguments?
-cpd

 

[kerbarian]

My issue is that the DMG never mentions the 'instantaneous conjuration' exception. Only those specific spells (wall of force, prismatic etc). By the way this arguement is going then, I expect that everyone takes the PHB spell description as superceding then the DMG effect description.

Yes, I believe we're all going by the PHB spell description.

Also, by the arguments made here... If the group agrees that the orb spell creates a permanent object then it bypasses AMF, otherwise it does not.

Do those two points sum up the arguments?

Not quite. My interpretation is that the spell does create a permanent object (even if silly, the RAW is clear on this) but that the orb is not fully conjured until it impacts the target. Therefore, the orb can't penetrate an AMF, because the AMF prevents the final stages of its conjuration.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Not quite. My interpretation is that the spell does create a permanent object (even if silly, the RAW is clear on this) but that the orb is not fully conjured until it impacts the target.

Let's say we're using the DMG variant rule, Striking Cover Instead of a Missed Target.

And let's say there's an orc 30 feet away, at whom I'm aiming my Orb of Acid.

And let's say my buddy the fighter is standing halfway in between us, providing the orc with soft cover.

Situation 1: I cast Orb of Acid, and roll well, and it hits the orc. Your position is that the orb is not 'fully conjured' until impact?

Situation 2: I cast Orb of Acid, and roll poorly, and hit the fighter. Does the fighter take damage from the orb? Or is it not 'fully conjured' since I was aiming at the orc? Is it 'full conjured' by the time it reaches the fighter?

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

Creation: A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates (subject to the limits noted above). If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.

Once the Orb of Acid is assembled - at your palm - the conjuration's job is over. The Orb of Acid is no longer magical as it sails through the air.

I'm not sure how one can claim that a rule about the effects of instantaneous conjurations doesn't apply to the effect of an instantaneous conjuration...?

I can.

You are highlighting the wrong portion of that quote:

Creation: A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates (subject to the limits noted above). If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.

Acid, Fire, Cold, Sonic, and Force are effects in the game. They are not objects (which have hardness and hit points) or creatures (which have hit points).

Hence, the Orb spells (and Acid Arrow for that matter) disregard the conjuration school of magic spell rules of DND magic and should not exist.

Hence, they cannot go through a DND AMF because they cannot exist in a DND world.


Note: A DM could also rule that since they are not an object or creature, that the instantaneous conjuration spell rules do not apply to them. Hence, they do not last indefinitely and are still magical and an AMF stops them. For example, since they do not have a "to hit" roll (i.e. are not ranged touch attacks), their propulsion could be considered magical at least.

 

[Hypersmurf]

You are highlighting the wrong portion of that quote:

Well, let's look at the Creation spells in the SRD.

Acid Arrow.
Acid Fog.
Acid Splash.
Black Tentacles.
Create Food and Water.
Create Water.
Fire Seeds.
Fog Cloud.
Gate.
Glitterdust.
Grease.
Heroes' Feast.
Incendiary Cloud.
Mage Armor.
Mage's Faithful Hound.

... have we seen anything with hardness and hit points yet? Maybe the food?

Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion. Is it an object? Does it have hardness and hit points? If so, what are they?

Should we rule that since Mage Armor does not have hardness or hit points, the rules for non-instantaneous creations do not apply, and therefore the Mage Armor does not vanish without a trace when the duration expires?

-Hyp.

 

[kerbarian]

Let's say we're using the DMG variant rule, Striking Cover Instead of a Missed Target.

And let's say there's an orc 30 feet away, at whom I'm aiming my Orb of Acid.

And let's say my buddy the fighter is standing halfway in between us, providing the orc with soft cover.

Situation 1: I cast Orb of Acid, and roll well, and it hits the orc. Your position is that the orb is not 'fully conjured' until impact?

Situation 2: I cast Orb of Acid, and roll poorly, and hit the fighter. Does the fighter take damage from the orb? Or is it not 'fully conjured' since I was aiming at the orc? Is it 'full conjured' by the time it reaches the fighter?

The orb doesn't have to be 1/3 completed after traveling 10', 2/3 completed after traveling 20', etc.

The simplest version would be to say that the orb has two states: the incompletely-conjured orb that flies through the air, and the completely conjured orb that exists when the orb impacts the target. The orb spell reacts to complete the conjuration when the orb impacts against something, just like the fireball spell reacts to cause a detonation when the bead it launches impacts against something.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The simplest version would be to say that the orb has two states: the incompletely-conjured orb that flies through the air, and the completely conjured orb that exists when the orb impacts the target. The orb spell reacts to complete the conjuration when the orb impacts against something, just like the fireball spell reacts to cause a detonation when the bead it launches impacts against something.

But then, wouldn't SR apply? Since striking a creature with SR causes a change in the spell, shouldn't SR prevent that change?

As written, SR doesn't apply... which makes sense, because the conjuration of the non-magical orb is complete before it impacts a target.

-Hyp.

 

[kerbarian]

But then, wouldn't SR apply? Since striking a creature with SR causes a change in the spell, shouldn't SR prevent that change?

As written, SR doesn't apply... which makes sense, because the conjuration of the non-magical orb is complete before it impacts a target.

I'd say that having no SR would be consistent with the way other conjuration spells work, even if the spell reacts to impact against a spell-resistant creature. Fire Seeds is a pretty good analogue -- the acorn grenades explode upon striking any hard surface, even if that surface is a spell-resistant creature, yet the spell allows no SR.

Also, reacting to a spell-resistant creature doesn't seem to fall within the guidelines of when SR applies. e.g. divination spells, which clearly react to spell-resistant creatures, generally don't allow SR. Another example would be Alarm, which is triggered if a spell-resistant creature enters the area, yet it doesn't allow SR.

 

[KarinsDad]

As written, SR doesn't apply... which makes sense, because the conjuration of the non-magical orb is complete before it impacts a target.

If conjuration is complete before it impacts a target, how does it target its target?

Most other spells (tmk) fail in an AMF unless that they state otherwise within AMF or within the spell itself.

If the Orb is non-magical, how does it auto-target its target without using magic? There is no ranged touch attack.

If the Orb is magical or targeting with magic, how does it get through the AMF?

If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence.

Note: This does not state that such spells do not depend on magic for their targeting.

Face it. The Orbs are screwy. The designers broke the rules when they created them and now they are an adjudication pain in the butt. For example, according to the rules you posted, the non-magical Orb of Magical Force hangs around forever, it cannot be dispelled, it has no way outside of some extremely limited magic to destroy it, and it has no hit points or hardness.

The game has no extremely obvious way (there might be an obscure way like a Sphere of Annihilation, or a Fire Orb might be extinguished with a Gust of Wind, Pyrotechnics, Quench or some such) to get rid of Orbs, especially Force Orbs, left over from Orb spells.

And how do these permanent Orbs maintain their shapes if they are made up of Sonic, Acid, Fire, or Cold? What is a Cold Orb? Is it cold air, or the magical essence of cold (held together in a non-magical way)? Or, do they lose their shapes and end up as blobs on the ground or on the bodies of their targets? Does the Fire Orb fly away because of its heat?


Anytime a spell is that screwy, it is up to the DM to adjudicate outside of RAW and fix it. If the conjuration rules you quoted create basically indestructible orbs that cannot easily be gotten rid of, then that same rule should not be used for that, nor should it be used to allow Orbs to penetrate AMF spells. The DM should adjudicate with common sense. IMO.


If you would not let an Acid Arrow to go through an AMF, you should not let an Acid Orb to go through an AMF. Screwy RAW should be ignored or corrected. Again, IMO.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

i said this in another forum, but i will say it in this one. Its like a rail gun (metal gear solid type) the caster probably just uses sudden force to propel the orb. An anti magic field can stop magic that is sent through it, but what if the orb is sent using magic that sends it by kinetic force at the moment of casting.

Also i don’t know why people say orbs are left over after words. sure its instantaneous, but if i use a spell to create a delicate object and hurl it at you, what makes you think its going to survive the impact.

I think hypersmerf is right in this case. All the creation is done at the moment the orb is launched, and I think personally the ob breaks on impact releasing its energy.

I don’t know why everyone is so up and arms about this spell. All it takes is an imagination. It really is a cool spell. so whats your real beef? That it takes away from evocation? Or that dms have less power with antimagic fields? If that’s the case, shouldn’t that be the argument and your real reason for saying you don’t like it, rather then saying its hooky or wonky, or stupid or retarded, or dumb.

I really don’t think it was a mistake in printing the spell. Maybe afterwards they realized what they had done, but they could errata it at any time and they haven’t. Just face it. It is what it is...