Any DM's not allowing Spiked Chains?

[Lord Zardoz]

Responding to Nial:

At level 6, cannon fodder types are not that important. If I need them to be effective at that point, I can keep my distance and use ranged attacks. I am talking about a 2nd level human fighter.

Human Bonus Feat: Exotic Weapon
1st level Char Feat: Power Attack
1st level Fighter Feat: Cleave
2nd level Fighter Feat: Great Cleave

Responding to Slaved:

For comparing the Spiked chain to a martial reach weapon, it is balanced, except that reach weapons cannot hit in close without the Short Haft feat. And if the Short haft feat is used, it either hits as reach or in close. And short haft requires +3 Bab, and eats a Swift action.

I never said that the villian was insurmountible for a first level party. However, it is still a dangerous situation for the players. Consider the effects of said villian getting a surprise round and a good attack roll? Or the results of the party fighting said villian after slogging through standard fodder and having used a bunch of resources. At melee range, the party is one unlucky round away from losing 2 or more of their party to a single attack.

Anyway, the spiked chain is hardly the most potentially broken / frustrating combo. Considering bang for buck, I would give that prize to flying + Improved Invisibility + Area spells. But this is a thread on why some DM's will Rule 0 the spiked chain.

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[Nail]

I am talking about a 2nd level human fighter.

Human Bonus Feat: Exotic Weapon
1st level Char Feat: Power Attack
1st level Fighter Feat: Cleave
2nd level Fighter Feat: Great Cleave

...which would have to survive being surround by orcs or goblins before this becomes a factor....and then he'd have to hit. At 2nd level he's liable to be within Crit-Kill range for the orc greataxes!




Then there's hitting the silly buggers:

Ftr 2 (Str 18) has an attack of +6 (2d4 +6); one hit, one kill, given the damage this guy's putting out. "Orcs" have an AC of 13, "Goblins" have an AC of 15. These are easy, by-the-book targets.

Against the orcs, he's got a 49% chance of killing 2, 34% chance of killing 3, and 24% chance of killing 4.

Against the goblins, he's got a 36% chance of killing 2, 22% chance of killing 3, and 13% chance of killing 4.

Given these numbers, it's pretty easy to see that the Ftr 2 is NOT killing huge numbers of them, and that given that, the fact that the chain is a reach weapon doesn't really come into play at all. A Ftr with a LONGSWORD could do the same amount of Great Cleaving.

Heck, the guy with the Longsword has an extra feat, which he could put into Weapon Focus (Longsword) and he'd be hitting more often!

 

[Hammerhead]

Human Bonus Feat: Exotic Weapon
1st level Char Feat: Power Attack
1st level Fighter Feat: Cleave
2nd level Fighter Feat: Great Cleave

That's great, except for the fact that Great Cleave requires +4 BAB. Thus, it's usually delayed until 6th level (since Weapon Specialization is more useful).

 

[Slaved]

Responding to Slaved:

For comparing the Spiked chain to a martial reach weapon, it is balanced, except that reach weapons cannot hit in close without the Short Haft feat. And if the Short haft feat is used, it either hits as reach or in close. And short haft requires +3 Bab, and eats a Swift action.

I do not like short haft as a feat, it looks like something that anyone could do just by choking up on the weapon somewhat.

But with a bit of tactical movement you get most of the same use out of the reach weapon as you do out of the spiked chain, although not as much definately! The spiked chain has to have something going for it after all.

Taking an example like the Guisarme the spiked chain takes an extra feat to use and has a worse critical. In exchange it can hit at both 5' and 10' as opposed to just 10' with the Guisarme or 5' and 10' with it and armor spikes or something similar.

The actual benefit from the spiked chain definately comes at some cost.

I never said that the villian was insurmountible for a first level party. However, it is still a dangerous situation for the players. Consider the effects of said villian getting a surprise round and a good attack roll?

If the guy gets a surprise round and wants to use his attack then he will move in and swing, just like anyone else. At this point though the advantage of having the spiked chain is mostly gone as a 5' step can get people right up next to him, so no aoo there, and likely a 5' step can get them away so that they can perform other actions. Unless the entire party is lined up in an incredibly poor search pattern that the spiked chain guy can take big advantage of without drawing aoos from the party.

So, is this guy that much more dangerous than a guy with a two handed sword with similar feats? Or with a polearm and similar feats? Or a different CR 3 badguy such as an ogre? I am just not seeing it at this point.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

That's great, except for the fact that Great Cleave requires +4 BAB. Thus, it's usually delayed until 6th level (since Weapon Specialization is more useful).

Well, if your going to throw facts into this arguement, of course the points I have made will fall apart. Facts are useless, and can be used to prove anything that is remotely true.

(Ok, so the build I suggest needs to be at 4th level. The build I have suggested does not have Weapon Focus anyway).

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[Elethiomel]

Taking an example like the Guisarme the spiked chain takes an extra feat to use and has a worse critical. In exchange it can hit at both 5' and 10' as opposed to just 10' with the Guisarme or 5' and 10' with it and armor spikes or something similar.

Oh, plus it's finesseable and has a bonus to disarm checks. These are both things that make it better than the Guisarme.

 

[Slaved]

Oh, plus it's finesseable and has a bonus to disarm checks. These are both things that make it better than the Guisarme.

I do not see finesseable as anything really, it does not effect the power level of the weapon it merely makes for an extra option for character use. More options which are not overpowered is a good thing in my opinion.

The disarm is definately an advantage though. I glossed over it because I would assume that a character would either do disarm or trip but not both and so one could either use the Guisarme or Ranseur respectively. Plus, if the foe has a locked gauntlet disarming is next to impossible. Having both options on the same weapon is nice though, definately.

The weapon is a nice little package that requires a feat to use and is basically on the bottom of the two handed weapon scale.

I do not see any arguements here that really say that it is broken or even all that powerful. Merely that its flavor needs to be adjusted for some and that others cannot get past the reach issue.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

So, is this guy that much more dangerous than a guy with a two handed sword with similar feats? Or with a polearm and similar feats? Or a different CR 3 badguy such as an ogre? I am just not seeing it at this point.

The only thing that really does bother me about the spiked chain is the close + reach hitting. Against someone using a regular reach weapon, once you get in close, you pretty much force the guy to either change weapons or allow adjacent opponents to attack with impunity.

If it was only a matter of the reach properties, I would say ok, no problem. But the weapon just seems to be good at too many different things. For me, the problem is a Spiked chain + Cleave / Great Cleave situation is the primary problem.

Any DM who complains about a particular spell, feat, or class ability usually does so because the existence of that item compromises his prefered play style a bit too much. I am no different. I get a lot of mileage out of low HD humanoids, even after Fireball comes into play. Using them allows a great deal more fine tuning of encounter difficulty then I can get out of spell casters. I don't feel compelled to pull back when using them either. I am not eager to throw my players against a caster loaded up with Hold Person, even though it is a tactically effective option. There are plenty of other examples I could suggest.

But the prospect of facing down a player with the kind of build I suggest would force me to use tactics or monsters that are more difficult for me to balance. It is easier for me to disallow the Spiked chain.

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[Nail]

But the prospect of facing down a player with the kind of build I suggest would force me to use tactics or monsters that are more difficult for me to balance. It is easier for me to disallow the Spiked chain.

A reasonable approach.

Tweaking might also get you what you'd like. I note that the Complete Warrior's warmace doesn't see alot of play, and that's often because of the psychological barrier that -1 AC penalty provides. Perhaps all the spike chain needs is a small penalty attached....say a -1 attack penalty?

 

[Lord Zardoz]

So far it is a non issue for me. No one is using the spiked chain, or has expressed an interest in it. My players are not relentless power gamers. And none of my villain have used that weapon.

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