D&D 5E Anyone Played An Enchanter to Level 10+? Theorycraft Also welcome.

[Zardnaar]

As the title says. That ability looks great and we have been testing it in BG3. Wife's Gale basically cake walked honor mode with it.

IRL though Level 10 is a long time to wait and you lack BG3s items granting +7-8 or so to spell DCs. Generally I don't expect to reach it as a player and I'm probably wrapping up the game around then.

In CoS think I got one session at lvl 10 out of my order cleric. I would probably expect the DM to wrap it up due to its ability coming online.

It's low level related cousin woukd be a Sorcerer using twin spell I suppose.

 

[ECMO3]

I have played them both in BG3 and in 5E.

In 5E it is awesome IME. Perhaps the best Wizard subclass if you are not going to multiclass at all.

In BG3 it is not very good. I think several wizards and sorcerers are better.

 

[Zardnaar]

I have played them both in BG3 and in 5E.

In 5E it is awesome IME. Perhaps the best Wizard subclass if you are not going to multiclass at all.

In BG3 it is not very good. I think several wizards and sorcerers are better.

I don't think it's very good until you hit 10.

Then it became amazing.

 

[ECMO3]

I don't think it's very good until you hit 10.

Then it became amazing.

I am not sure if you are talking about 5e or BG3.

In 5E Hypnotic Gaze is freaking awesome. I think it is the most powerful 2nd level Wizard subclass ability. It is unlimited uses and permanent incapacitation as long as you use your action to maintain it (and your allies don't damage the guy). You can lock someone down for 6 days straight on a failed save, or indefinitely if a friend can cast greater restoration on you. Also you can use Silvery Barbs and allies can use reactions or things like portent to land it and the Wizard gets some good bonus action options through spells so you can still be effective while holding someone charmed.

Fighting a boss with Mooks if you land it on the boss your allies clean up the mooks and then you tie up the boss, strip him of his weapons, spell components etc, tie him up. THEN you attack him and break it.

Instinctive Charm is ok. Not great, but great thematically and situationally useful.

Split Enchantment is again awesome. There are so many good enchantments - Enemies Abound, Hold Monkster, Psychich Lance, Power Word Kill, Power Word Stun ....

Alter Memories is mediocre, mostly because it relies on Charisma, which is usually a dump stat.

In BG3 it just never worked well for me. Hypnotic Gaze in particular was kind of wonky and it has a limited duration unlike 5E. Add that you don't get the racial or spell options you get in 5E to really synergize and cash in on it. I also played the subclass a lot in 5E before BG3 came out, so them nerfing HG just made it seem so much worse.

Ironically in BG3 the Subclass I really like on a Wizard is Evocation, which I do not like at all in 5E.

 

[mellored]

I don't think it's very good until you hit 10.

Then it became amazing.

Agreed. Not terrible, but not good.

Hypnotic Gaze short range makes it difficult to use for a squishy wizard. Has a niche use if a bear gets in your face, but most days it won't be used.

Instinctive Charm will half the time just get them to target an ally. Another one that's hard to use well.

But double targets for Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Suggestion and Raulothim's Psychic Lance (with it's Int save) really boosts your power.

 

[Zardnaar]

I am not sure if you are talking about 5e or BG3.

In 5E Hypnotic Gaze is freaking awesome. I think it is the most powerful 2nd level Wizard subclass ability. It is unlimited uses and permanent incapacitation as long as you use your action to maintain it (and your allies don't damage the guy). You can lock someone down for 6 days straight on a failed save, or indefinitely if a friend can cast greater restoration on you. Also you can use Silvery Barbs and allies can use reactions or things like portent to land it and the Wizard gets a ton of good bonus action options through spells so you can still be effective while holding someone charmed.

Fighting a boss with Mooks if you land it on the boss your allies clean up the mooks and then you tie up the boss, strip him of his weapons, spell components etc, tie him up. THEN you attack him and break it.

Instinctive Charm is ok. Not great, but great thematically and situationally useful.

Split Enchantment is again awesome. There are so many good enchantments - Enemies Abound, Hold Monkster, Psychich Lance, Power Word Kill, Power Word Stun ....

Alter Memories is mediocre, mostly because it relies on Charisma, which is usually a dump stat.

In BG3 it just never worked well for me. Hypnotic Gaze in particular was kind of wonky and it has a limited duration unlike 5E. Add that you don't get the racial or spell options you get in 5E to really synergize and cash in on it. I also played the subclass a lot in 5E before BG3 came out, so them nerfing HG just made it seem so much worse.

Ironically in BG3 the Subclass I really like on a Wizard is Evocation, which I do not like at all in 5E.

BG3 with the spell DC boost items.

Cakewalk every boss fight except Cazador and Ansur using it.

Cakewalked Ansur as well. He survived two rounds vs 1 using our fun and giggles characters eg camp barbarian.

 

[mellored]

In 5E Hypnotic Gaze is freaking awesome. I think it is the most powerful 2nd level Wizard subclass ability. It is unlimited uses and permanent incapacitation as long as you use your action to maintain it (and your allies don't damage the guy). You can lock someone down for 6 days straight on a failed save, or indefinitely if a friend can cast greater restoration on you. Also you can use Silvery Barbs and allies can use reactions or things like portent to land it and the Wizard gets a ton of good bonus action options through spells so you can still be effective while holding someone charmed.

Fighting a boss with Mooks if you land it on the boss your allies clean up the mooks and then you tie up the boss, strip him of his weapons, spell components etc, tie him up. THEN you attack him and break it.

Or one of the Mooks comes up and shoves you or the boss.

Or they use legendary resistance, and your squishy self is standing next to the big bad.

There are some situations it will work out well, but IME, not that many.

 

[ECMO3]

Hypnotic Gaze short range makes it difficult to use for a squishy wizard. Has a niche use if a bear gets in your face, but most days it won't be used.

I use it all the time, but I use race options to leverage it either Mountain Dwarf (armor), Goblin (bonus action disengage) or Eladrin or Shaddar Kai (Fey Step).

Often it is a 2nd round option. First round, cast a spell that gives bonus action things (Flaming Sphere, Melfs Meteors, Storm Sphere) and get close enough but not too close to the guy you want to use it on. Second Round go up and charm him. If it fails use your bonus action to get out of there. If it lands he is incapacitated and you have damaging options for a bonus.

Also you do not need concentration to maintain HG, so if you take a bit of damage from the bad guy's allies it is usually not a big deal, unlike if you were using a Hold Person or Web or something like that.

Instinctive Charm will half the time just get them to target an ally. Another one that's hard to use well.

I agree, IC is hard to use effectively, especially when it is often inferior to shield as a reaction.

I do combo it with HG though ocasionally if I am stuck in melee during a large battle where my allies are elsewhere. Exploit the initiative order and HG the guy standing next to you that goes next. He skips his turn, then IC the other guy so he attacks the guy that is charmed, it may break his charm but he already lost his turn

But double targets for Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Suggestion and Raulothim's Psychic Lance (with it's Int save) really boosts your power.

These are all good. THL is hard to find a spot for as it is 1st level, does not upcast and those slots are in high demand already when this comes online.

I really like Enemies Abound and Ottos Irresistable dance as well. OID is powerful with it because there is no save and it is an action to attempt a saver break it, making it really good on enemies with Legendary Resistance.

 

[ECMO3]

Or one of the Mooks comes up and shoves you or the boss.

Sure but that is an action and a check to shove me and an action to shove the boss and RAW this only works after the second round when he is incapacitated. The first round he is charmed and incapacitated whether or not I move away, the 2nd and subsequent rounds after I extend it I need to stay within 5 feet.

Also RAW for most monsters this is an entire action to attempt a shove. Meaning they are losing a minimum of 2 actions (the charmed guys action and the guy shoving's action). That is a win. Often if enemies are intelligent it is actually better to attack the boss than to shove him.

Or they use legendary resistance, and your squishy self is standing next to the big bad.

I am not standing next to him on a made save, I am going to bonus action disengage (Goblin) or use a bonus action to teleport and get out of there.

Also he has to hear you but does not need to see you, so when I am playing a Goblin, depending on the environment hide as a bonus action can also be an option to help prevent enemies from targeting you.

There are some situations it will work out well, but IME, not that many.

It works very often in games I play and I play this a lot. Granted I do build a Wizard purposely to be able to leverage the ability, but it is awesome.

 

[mellored]

The first round he is charmed and incapacitated whether or not I move away

I can see room to debate it, but my reading is "the effect ends if you move more than 5 feet away from the creature".

Applies to the whole thing, not just to the subsequent turns.

Also RAW for most monsters this is an entire action to attempt a shove.

Fair.

I guess I have been playing with the playtest rules for a while, where shove is 1 attack and you can intentionally fail a save. So a lot easier to break it.

But yes, if you build around it, Hypnotic Gaze does better. Also, it's got some some out of combat uses too.

But I would still rank it in the mid tier, below Portent, Bladesong, Arcane Ward, or Arcane Deflection. But above Minor Alchemy, Grim Harvest, or Awakened Spellbook.