Argyle King
Legend
Not currently playing 4E, but the D&D group is wanting to pick it back up for our next game.
For my part, "epicness" doesn't really need to be magical (though it is almost always supernatural--more on that later), nor does it need to mess with physics per se. An epic-type adventure needs to stretch the bounds of what seems possible or achievable, usually by going up against fantastical forces, thinking of a clever solution to a previously insoluble problem, or breaking a previously inviolable rule/pattern at a very grand scale. "Mythic" fits into a similar boat, but doesn't (to my mind) require quite as much...scale or breadth as "epic" does. You can have a "mythic" adventure as a child exploring the woods behind your grandmother's house, but not really an "epic" one in the usual sense. (It could be epic from a young child's perspective, but that's because they don't really have a well-calibrated sense of scale yet. To a five-year-old, neighbor's houses are enigmatic domains of wonder and mystery.)That's strange, these paragraphs did not smack too much of alternative world physics, although indeed there were many, but honestly, how can you do truly epic without epic magic and its impact on physics ?
That's an "epic" adventure--one with vast scope, a problem that looks potentially insoluble, tools and allies that are nearly too vast for the human mind to wrap around, and the pretty clear expectation of truly awesome, as in actually inspiring awe, scenes and events.
I think it's a pretty remarkable design achievement.
I don't really know what this means.It would be, for me, if it felt that way, but it did not, not for our groups. It just felt the same mechanistic way but with bigger numbers.
Here, too, I don't know what "restrictions" you have in mind. The fundamental difference between (say) a 20th level 4e Fighter and a 20th level AD&D or 3E fighter is that the former character has build elements - powers, healing surges, action points - that can be used as currency in a skill check or skill challenge, and that feed directly (via the combat action resolution mechanics) into combat resolution.I just think that in the end they did so much to restrict the openness of the possibilities of a fantasy world that true epicness never took its flight for us.
I don't really know what this means.
The numbers being bigger is neither here nor there - HeroQuest revised can do Heroic-tier stuff or Epic-tier stuff using the same numbers. In 4e D&D there are two rationales (beyond tradition) for growing the numbers: (1) to help imbue a sense of scaling, given the pre-packaged game elements in the form of monster, trap and treasure lists; (2) to allow the change I described in the relationship between PCs and NPC/creatures (ie an increase in PC "depth" in contrast to a relatively greater degree of NPC/creature hit point and damage scaling).
Here, too, I don't know what "restrictions" you have in mind. The fundamental difference between (say) a 20th level 4e Fighter and a 20th level AD&D or 3E fighter is that the former character has build elements - powers, healing surges, action points - that can be used as currency in a skill check or skill challenge, and that feed directly (via the combat action resolution mechanics) into combat resolution.
I think this is where 4e, at least in terms of D&D editions, is so stark a contrast, and a positive one, to other editions. There is no pretense at all that there even IS such a thing as 'physics'. There is game. Whenever 4e deploys something into its milieu it is don as a way of introducing some good game play. When I say 'game play' I don't mean simply 'mechanics', I mean the whole general play. The cosmology exists to be playable, the power system (A/E/D/U) to be playable, etc. and how those result in a 'cool' story that you can play through matters. Even where it might fail, at least it tried. A lot of 5e, for example, strikes me as "damn whether it will actually play well or not, this MUST be in the game!" bleh. I'll take the 4e approach every time, and IMHO sticking with it inevitably leads in the direction of better and better results.That's strange, these paragraphs did not smack too much of alternative world physics, although indeed there were many, but honestly, how can you do truly epic without epic magic and its impact on physics ?
And this is why running Epic 4e is so awesome, because the thematics of WA cosmology work to produce this kind of result. GW cosmology OTOH is exactly the opposite. The GW has always existed, alignment is immutable and forever, the balance cannot be upset, you are all just less than ants in an endless infinite cosmology where everything you can possibly do is ultimately without significance. Which one creates the exciting stories? It sure isn't GW. I mean, you can do fun things in GW, but you have to subvert it, or else the tone is just a lot less epic, overall. I never understood what GW gives you in return. AFAICT it exists because it was an idea that EGG drew on the back of a napkin once in 1974.For my part, "epicness" doesn't really need to be magical (though it is almost always supernatural--more on that later), nor does it need to mess with physics per se. An epic-type adventure needs to stretch the bounds of what seems possible or achievable, usually by going up against fantastical forces, thinking of a clever solution to a previously insoluble problem, or breaking a previously inviolable rule/pattern at a very grand scale. "Mythic" fits into a similar boat, but doesn't (to my mind) require quite as much...scale or breadth as "epic" does. You can have a "mythic" adventure as a child exploring the woods behind your grandmother's house, but not really an "epic" one in the usual sense. (It could be epic from a young child's perspective, but that's because they don't really have a well-calibrated sense of scale yet. To a five-year-old, neighbor's houses are enigmatic domains of wonder and mystery.)
As an example, one of my favorite bits of lore from the 4e World Axis setting is that Bahamut is building divine arcology-ships in order to house the many souls that aren't allowed to go to the heaven they should have gone to. (This problem was caused by the Dawn War destroying the Lattice of Heaven, and several distinct sets of deities merging their divine domains in order to protect themselves.) That's a pretty cool thing all on its own, Bahamut literally calling together some of the greatest artisans, living and dead, to try to fix a problem no other deity is particularly concerned about. That's a pretty much textbook epic backdrop.
But it gets better! See, the 4e version of Kord isn't just some layabout STRONK BOI who likes to challenge people to contests of strength or whatever. He's actually a lot more like Batman: moody, brooding, CRAZY-prepared (though others see it as just crazy or rather paranoid), extremely determined, and disinclined to work with the team when he thinks he knows better. And one particular hypothetical scenario has Kord, or at least agents of Kord, hijack the first completed ark-ship, implicitly trying to get the jump on the Dusk War, but almost surely both triggering that war and wrecking most of reality in the process. This then leads to a desperate chase and struggle to stop Kord (or his agents) from setting reality on fire in their efforts to protect things.
That's an "epic" adventure--one with vast scope, a problem that looks potentially insoluble, tools and allies that are nearly too vast for the human mind to wrap around, and the pretty clear expectation of truly awesome, as in actually inspiring awe, scenes and events.