AoO and Cleave

[Storm Raven]

Would you also allow Expertise to be used when making an AOO? Well I don't care if I hit the foe as long as I can boost myself in some way ruining the attempt

No, but that is because of the text of the feats in question.

Power Attack [General]
Prerequisite
Str 13.

Benefit
On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Combat Expertise [General]
Prerequisite
Int 13.

Benefit
When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as -5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.

Normal
A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class.

An AoO is neither made on your turn, nor is it using the attack action. By their own language, Power Attack and Combat Expertise are limited to use when you act. Cleave has no such limitation.

 

[Goolpsy]

Well powerattack says on your action.. not your turn...
And you gain an attack action when getting a 'cleave'... So its an action restricted to attack with.. hence acording to the text in theory you could use power attack as part of an AOO

 

[Hypersmurf]

I actually decided on my "no chaining attacks from AoOs" rule after seeing the obnoxiousness that was the Lasher.

What's the main issue with the Lasher? He only threatens 5 feet... does he take so many AoOs that it causes more of a problem than a scythe or a flail?

An AoO is neither made on your turn, nor is it using the attack action. By their own language, Power Attack and Combat Expertise are limited to use when you act.

Of course, if you did use either feat on your action, they still affect any AoOs you make before your next turn...

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

And you gain an attack action when getting a 'cleave'...

No, you don't. You gain a melee attack.

The attack action is a standard action that allows a single ranged or melee attack. The charge action is a full round action that allows a single melee attack. The full attack action is a full round action that allows one or more ranged or melee attacks. An AoO allows a single melee attack... but it does not allow the attack action.

-Hyp.

 

[billd91]

A separate set of questions to ask that might be related are:

Can you apply your Dodge bonus against someone making an AoO against you?

Can you use Power Attack as part of an AoO?

Weapon Finesse?

How about other feats?


IMO the same logic for "disallowing" cleave should also apply to every one of these.

I do not think the same logic applies at all. The logic that questions getting a cleave off an AoO is whether provoking an AoO should make someone who didn't drop his guard vulnerable. AoO are usually direct responses to the character who provoked the AoO while cleave lets that response directly affect another character as well. It's not even a question of using a feat in general.

Looking at your list, as long as the you had already designated your dodge bonus as being against the person making the AoO against you, then certainly the dodge bonus applies.
Weapon finesse applies to attack rolls and not actions so as long as the weapon you're using is light or a rapier, weapon finesse can be used.
Power attack and Expertise require it to be your action to adjust (and AoO aren't really actions) but if already in use from your own action, their bonuses/penalties still apply. So yes, they can be used in a fashion.

Any questions on these feats have nothing to do with letting an AoO and its aftermath directly affect a character who did not provoke the AoO.

Whichever side of the debate you come down on (and we're mostly talking about how the rule should be, not how it can be interpreted as written), it's a good idea to not confuse the logic of one argument with completely unrelated questions.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Of course, if you did use either feat on your action, they still affect any AoOs you make before your next turn...

-Hyp.

Indeed. So, say, I've charged forward ... Power Attacking for -3/+6 (Greatclub). I swing, I wiff.

That foe then attempts to move past me to strike the spellcaster, provoking an AoO. When I take that AoO, I still have a -3/+6 modifier from the Power Attacked attack I performed earlier. I'll retain that until just before my next turn. Even if I WANTED to take off the Power Attack to increase my odds of hitting, I can't.

Then I chain that AoO into the guy behind me when I obliterate the baddie I missed the first time, using Cleave.

--fje

 

[Storm Raven]

Well powerattack says on your action.. not your turn...

That would primarily be because the D&D rules don't generally reference turns. They reference your action.

And you gain an attack action when getting a 'cleave'... So its an action restricted to attack with.. hence acording to the text in theory you could use power attack as part of an AOO

No, an AoO grants you a single melee attack. An attack action is defined in the rules under "Actions in Combat". An attack action is distinct from a melee attack.

 

[irdeggman]

I do not think the same logic applies at all. The logic that questions getting a cleave off an AoO is whether provoking an AoO should make someone who didn't drop his guard vulnerable. AoO are usually direct responses to the character who provoked the AoO while cleave lets that response directly affect another character as well. It's not even a question of using a feat in general.
Any questions on these feats have nothing to do with letting an AoO and its aftermath directly affect a character who did not provoke the AoO.

Whichever side of the debate you come down on (and we're mostly talking about how the rule should be, not how it can be interpreted as written), it's a good idea to not confuse the logic of one argument with completely unrelated questions.

Actually cleave has nothing to do with someone dropping their guard. I said it before and I think it bears repeating. Cleave, at least IMO, is something that the attacker does by continuing his attack - it does not mean that an opponent has dropped their guard at all. Think in terms of a more continuous motion due to the first opponent falling (and no longer providing any resistance).

Why should this be any different than if a character chooses to use Power Attack on his action and then makes an AoO (before his next turn) and get to apply Power Attack? It wasn't the original taget of the Power Attack was it? Well maybe it was, but lets assume it is an entirely different opponent to keep things at least sort of consistent - that is two different targets.

 

[irdeggman]

Well powerattack says on your action.. not your turn...
And you gain an attack action when getting a 'cleave'... So its an action restricted to attack with.. hence acording to the text in theory you could use power attack as part of an AOO

Nope - you turn it on at your action, it lasts until your next turn.

 

[FireLance]

That's not a fairness question concerning AoO in combination with cleave. That's an argument that you don't like cleave to begin with. Why should A be subject to a cleave attack at all using this logic? A never does anything that would make himself vulnerable to a follow-up attack, why is it any more fair or unfair that it occurs off of an AoO or a standard attack? Given that combat is simultaneous, and only broken up into "turns" in order to accomodate the limitations of humans playing a table top game, talking about "my turn" or "your turn" doesn't really get you very far.

What do you think the Cleaver is taking advantage of in a non-AOO situation?

Actually cleave has nothing to do with someone dropping their guard. I said it before and I think it bears repeating. Cleave, at least IMO, is something that the attacker does by continuing his attack - it does not mean that an opponent has dropped their guard at all. Think in terms of a more continuous motion due to the first opponent falling (and no longer providing any resistance).

I'll take these three comments together. I agree that Cleave has nothing to do with someone dropping their guard. This is why I'm fine with Cleaving off a normal attack. To me, a Cleave is an attack, or a sequence of attacks, so powerful that the attacker can drop a weak opponent effortlessly and then turn his attention to another opponent. To put it another way, Cleave allows you to drop a weak opponent as a free action. However, because you can't tell ahead of time whether you're going to drop a weak opponent, you make your attack roll against the weak opponent first. If you drop the opponent, your attack against the weak opponent becomes a free action, and you can continue making whatever attacks you are entitled to as if you had not attacked the weak opponent.

So, on C's turn, C makes an attack roll against B and drops him. C may continue making whatever attacks he is entitled to as if he had not attacked B. C then makes another attack roll against A.

Cleave has nothing to do with someone dropping their guard, but AOOs do. If B drops his guard, he provokes an AOO from C. C gets an extra attack roll against B. However, if C drops B and Cleaves into A, it's as if C has got an AOO against A. I don't like that because in the normal course of combat, C would only have got one attack roll against A, but now he gets two even though A was defending himself normally. A did not do anything to provoke an AOO, but he has effectively been targeted with an AOO by C.

I think the idea that Cleave makes dropping a weak opponent a free action works best for me. If B provokes an AOO from C, and C drop him with the AOO, C may continue making whatever attacks he is entitled to as if he had not attacked B. However, because A did not provoke an AOO, C can't Cleave into A.