AoO's in an Improved Snatch/Grab?

[ARandomGod]

As I understand, Snatch is like Grab for creatures with a bite. Improved Snatch is like Improved Grab, in that it allows the creature to take a -20 on the grapple attack and not be considered grappled except for the body part used for the improved grab/snatch.

So if a spellcaster were subjected to a successful improved snatch... would the spell caster be considered grappled for purposes of attempting to cast a spell (I think so), and would the creature that snatched the spellcaster be threatening the spellcaster with it's other natural weapons (like claws)?

By which I mean, would the caster have to make an concentration check to cast a (verbal only) spell as if in a grapple, or would he have to make also a casting defensive check to avoid attacks of opportunity from the claws of the monster who's maw he's inside, and THEN make a concentration check to cast a (verbal only) spell?

Which leads me to a third and similar question... if a the caster were in the maw of the beast having been subjected to a successful improved snatch, would OTHER nearby creatures be able to make attacks of opportunity against the caster if he were to attempt to cast while in that grapple?

In the case where this happened, the Dragon in question also had the MageSlayer feat, so I couldn't have cast defensively in any case, however I want to know (for future reference) if something like that comes up, would the poor grappled mage be subject to AoO's from the grappler's claws while in the grappler's mouth, or could the mage just make a concentration check to cast while in a grapple? And, of course, if there happened to be multiple opponents (dragons, I suppose... shudder), would THEY get AoO's if the mage were to attempt to cast a spell while in that grapple?

 

[VoiceOfReason?]

As you said, (Improved) Snatch is, for all intensive purposes, a grapple.

As far as whether he's still considered threatened by other natural weapons or other opponents..good question; other opponents still threaten the grappled mage, though I'm not sure about the dragon in question. I'm guessing that with Improved Snatch or Improved Grab, the grappler would still threaten the mage with every natural weapon except the one tied up in the grapple; while with the non-improved versions (basically a grapple), the grappler loses all attacks of opportunity and threatened area as normal for grappling. But that's just the VoiceOfReason? talking.

Spells without somatic components do not incur attacks of opportunity, though the concentration check for being grappled still applies.

If someone other than the grappler (paraphrasing, this may apply to the grappler too, I dunno) attacks someone being grappled, the attacker has a 50% chance (decided after attack roll is applied to the intended target's AC) to hit either of the grapplers unless special care (called shot-not applicable on AoO) or circumstances (something that negates cover) are applied.

 

[ARandomGod]

As you said, (Improved) Snatch is, for all intensive purposes, a grapple.

As far as whether he's still considered threatened by other natural weapons or other opponents..good question; other opponents still threaten the grappled mage, though I'm not sure about the dragon in question. I'm guessing that with Improved Snatch or Improved Grab, the grappler would still threaten the mage with every natural weapon except the one tied up in the grapple; while with the non-improved versions (basically a grapple), the grappler loses all attacks of opportunity and threatened area as normal for grappling. But that's just the VoiceOfReason? talking.

Spells without somatic components do not incur attacks of opportunity, though the concentration check for being grappled still applies.

If someone other than the grappler (paraphrasing, this may apply to the grappler too, I dunno) attacks someone being grappled, the attacker has a 50% chance (decided after attack roll is applied to the intended target's AC) to hit either of the grapplers unless special care (called shot-not applicable on AoO) or circumstances (something that negates cover) are applied.

Do spells without somatic components still not incur AoO's? I was informed that this was an earlier edition ruling and not applicable to 3.5.

 

[ARandomGod]

Do spells without somatic components still not incur AoO's? I was informed that this was an earlier edition ruling and not applicable to 3.5.

Hrmm... Anyone? Is that indeed a fact, or do all non-quickened spells, even those without somatic components, provoke?

 

[kjenks]

So if a spellcaster were subjected to a successful improved snatch... would the spell caster be considered grappled for purposes of attempting to cast a spell (I think so), and would the creature that snatched the spellcaster be threatening the spellcaster with it's other natural weapons (like claws)?

Yes. And no.

Yes, the spellcaster is grappled, even though the Improved Grabber is not considered to be grappling. A strange situation, at best.

But the rules for Improved Grab just say that the grabber threatens others, not the grabbee. Behold the text in italics:

Improved Grab (Ex): If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents.

The ability description does not say that the grabber can use its remaining attacks against the grabbee, only against other opponents.

And by the grappling rules, one cannot use two (or more) weapons while grappling. So the grabbee can be damaged with a Damage Your Opponent option (with -20 on the grabber's grapple check), or the grabber can attack with a light weapon (like a natural weapon) at -4, per the usual grapple rules, but the grabber cannot beat up on the grabbee with all of his remaining natural weapons.

 

[shilsen]

Hrmm... Anyone? Is that indeed a fact, or do all non-quickened spells, even those without somatic components, provoke?

Yes, all non-quickened spells (whatever the components) provoke AoOs. A silent True Strike, which has no components, will still provoke an AoO. Put it down to the concentration required to cast the spell, irrespective of the components.

 

[ARandomGod]

The ability description does not say that the grabber can use its remaining attacks against the grabbee, only against other opponents.

And by the grappling rules, one cannot use two (or more) weapons while grappling. So the grabbee can be damaged with a Damage Your Opponent option (with -20 on the grabber's grapple check), or the grabber can attack with a light weapon (like a natural weapon) at -4, per the usual grapple rules, but the grabber cannot beat up on the grabbee with all of his remaining natural weapons.

I thought it a bit much that a person so grappled would have to make a concentration check to be able to cast in the grapple, and then a concentration check to cast defensively... (Add the mageslayer feat to that, and no casting defensively AND an AoO automatically when a spell is attempted, and then there's a concentration check from the pain of taking the damage instead. Pretty much an instant kill any mage, with no hope.)

 

[kjenks]

I thought it a bit much that a person so grappled would have to make a concentration check to be able to cast in the grapple, and then a concentration check to cast defensively... (Add the mageslayer feat to that, and no casting defensively AND an AoO automatically when a spell is attempted, and then there's a concentration check from the pain of taking the damage instead. Pretty much an instant kill any mage, with no hope.)

You can't usually make an AoO on someone you're grappling. I don't see anything in the Improved Grab description that lets the grabber taking the -20 option make an AoO on the grabbee. Do you?

 

[spacemonkey]

You can't usually make an AoO on someone you're grappling. I don't see anything in the Improved Grab description that lets the grabber taking the -20 option make an AoO on the grabbee. Do you?

I don't, but I do see where it says (in the Improved Grab entry)

"The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents."

Herein lies the problem, for if the creature (dragon in this case) is not considered grappled, then it has to be treated as an adjacent but non-grappling combatant (even though certain parts of it are involved in the grapple, the creature itself is not -for game purposes).

Does this mean it is not hindered by normal grapple rules? Yes. Take a look at the improved grab ability. I can see where kjenks is coming from on his stance that ONLY other creatures are threatened by the posessor of the improved grab feat, but I read it differently. I think that line was put in to emphasize the fact that the user of improved grab is not considered grappled, and therefore threatens as normal - the fact that they did not specify you threaten the grappled opponent seems irrelevant, as they did not specify that you don't either. They did specify that you are not considered grappled. A difficult read overall, but I would be tempted to rule that the snatcher can indeed attack the snatchee with his other weapons, though I would add in a -4 for cover (as most of the snatchee would be covred by your own teeth or such).

Does this make snatch super powerful? Not really. Remember that to snatch the wizard in the first place, the dragon in question must be:

* Huge size or larger
* 3 sizes larger than the creature snatched (assuming a medium wiz, that's gargantuan)
* taking the -20 penalty to grapple checks

This dragon should totally outclass the mage physically. A spellcaster of his sort shouldn't be anywhere the dragon can get to him if possible.

So we have a gargantuan dragon snatching a medium (or small) wizard - is he hosed? Yes.
Should he be? Yes. The dragon can go to town on the wizard for a round, then the wizard can try to break free (he's got a chance at least because of the -20 taken by the dragon, even if its other bonuses are hefty). Then the dragon (who has been using his move actions, probably with flyby attack, to ascend this whole while) uses his breath weapon on the mage (no save if snatched) then drops the mage from whatever altitude he has achieved (free action) and goes back to put the hurt on fighter-boy. Meanwhile the mage prays he prepped feather fall today and the rest of the party preps for a fight with a freakin' dragon.

That's the way I read it anyway - it isn't especially clear and I'm certainly willing to admit there are other interpretations. I'm using snatch here, as I couldn't find where Improved Snatch is, but the basics should be the same.


So to summarize and answer the original question with the interpretation above, the mage in question trying to cast a spell would:

* try to cast on definsive, or take an AoO (dragon has mageslayer feat)
* if hit (very likely), make concentration check for being damaged while casting
* if that concentration check is successful, make another to cast while grappled

That's a maximum of 2 concentration checks, which is comparable to casting while threatened while on unsure footing/earthquake or something similar. The checks may be a bit more difficult here because the mage is being mauled instead of trying to walk across a pitching ship deck, but that's the situation.

 

[ARandomGod]

Does this make snatch super powerful? Not really. Remember that to snatch the wizard in the first place, the dragon in question must be:

* Huge size or larger
* 3 sizes larger than the creature snatched (assuming a medium wiz, that's gargantuan)
* taking the -20 penalty to grapple checks

This dragon should totally outclass the mage physically. A spellcaster of his sort shouldn't be anywhere the dragon can get to him if possible.

So we have a gargantuan dragon snatching a medium (or small) wizard - is he hosed? Yes.
Should he be? Yes. The dragon can go to town on the wizard for a round, then the wizard can try to break free (he's got a chance at least because of the -20 taken by the dragon, even if its other bonuses are hefty).

And he (I) was indeed screwed.
(Note, I'm not complaining about the death, I even got a nice discount on a resurrection.)

Even with the -20 I was automatically beat. Of course, as an Arcane Trickster I might have been able to get out with an escape artist check, and I did have feather fall prepared. But I chose to attempt to cast Dimension Door instead (not knowing that this dragon wich totally caught me by surprise had the MageSlayer feat). So an automatic AoO which autohit the pooor grappled mage, doing enough damage to make it completely impossible to pass the concentration check in the first place.

The good news is the dragon did indeed drop me when I went below 0.
The other good news is that the dragon didn't kill me, the fall did.

I can agree with the interpretation that he would be able to claw-claw bite me in that grapple if he wanted... But it does seem like a bit of an overkill.
At least now I'm high enough level to cast contingency, if not high enough to make DD the contingent spell. I think either blink or gaseous form should be a good escape spell until then though...
So as soon as I earn enough money to buy the spell and the focus (the resurrections left the party broke, me in paricular), I should be safe from another surprise dragon attack... at least if I'm not killed by the first chomp.