Arcane Power- Wizards Stretched Thin

[Cadfan]

You seem to be presuming that flying and having a flight speed are two different things, but I'm not aware of any rule that makes such a distinction. Are you aware of such a rule? If so, please point it out to me.

Until then, the ruling by customer service seems perfectly reasonable to me.

The difference is whether you have the ability to fly between turns. A creature with a flight speed does. And since the default flight speed rules assume wings, it makes sense to have rules for momentum- move at least 2 spaces, or you crash. Alright.0

Meanwhile a creature without a flight speed who was granted the ability to fly by a power has the ability to fly as long as the power grants it. In this case, for one move action during which you can fly a maximum of a particular distance. A normal reading of the power would suggest that you have the ability to fly while its active, and then not while its not. It does not make sense to take rules designed to mimic momentum and then boot strap them into a full round of hovering after a power's defined effect has ended.

The upshot of this ruling is that all non-fly-speed-flight now has an "until the end of your next turn you can hover if you moved at least 2" effect built into it, unless it specificaly states otherwise.

Which is kind of awkward at times. See above for details, the amazing flying rhino, etc.

 

[SoulStorm]

The difference is whether you have the ability to fly between turns

There is no such thing as between turns. Turns are only useful as a mechinism to simulate the ability for all creatures to act during the round. All characters act simultaneously, turns exist only to bring gamist order to that simultaneous activity.

For flying creatures, the only point of concern is the ability to fly each round. If there is a round where you can't fly, you fall.

 

[WhatGravitas]

This is seriously stupid. I'm filing it with the moronic swordmage versatile weapon hand jive as an obviously unintended consequence of rules written for one purpose being used again for another.

Also, thanks to Storm Pillar issues, according to their latest ruling, they apparently distinguish between enter and move into. So Wall of Fire just got weird, because you can throw people into it without hurting them. And cause fear does, but command doesn't. That ruling just made Wall of Fire worse (and Storm Pillar also looks a bit less enticing now).

Cheers, LT.

 

[Cadfan]

There is no such thing as between turns. Turns are only useful as a mechinism to simulate the ability for all creatures to act during the round. All characters act simultaneously, turns exist only to bring gamist order to that simultaneous activity.

For flying creatures, the only point of concern is the ability to fly each round. If there is a round where you can't fly, you fall.

Except for one small problem with your analysis- powers themselves are also gamist artifacts of the turn system, and have set, clearly defined starts and finishes.

And its worth remembering that a sorcerer isn't a "flying creature." Its a dude who cast a spell that let him fly for a set, clearly defined length of time: one move action. Once that move action is over, he's not a flying creature. Except apparently in this area of the game the regular rules that cover set, clearly defined lengths of time now have an exception: the only exception of this type, in fact, in the entire game. That exception is that anyone who flies at least two spaces for any reason does not cease flying until the end of their next turn.

I view it as pretty much obvious that the rules for flying two spaces to stay aloft exist to facilitate winged creatures who need speed to remain airborne.

 

[Cadfan]

Alright, punks! How about this one!

Energetic Flight, sorcerer 22. Lets you fly, and HOVER, until the end of your next turn.

Now lets interpret this using the interpretive lens that brought us this stupid ruling on flying.

It lets you fly, and hover, until the end of your next turn. So on this turn you fly straight up 30 feet and 10 feet over, and next turn you fly straight up another 30 feet and ten feet over.

Now, what happens next round?

Well, if this power did NOT grant hover, you'd stay in the air, poised 60 feet off the ground, unleashing magic on the suckers below. Then, because you didn't travel at least two spaces, you'd crash at the end of the round.

So what does the power do now, since it DOES grant hover?

It lets you stay in the air, poised 60 feet off the ground, unleashing magic on the suckers below. At the end of your turn you fall because you didn't move two... NO! Wait! That rule doesn't apply to you because you hover! "A monster that can hover... ... remains flying even if it did not move the minimum distance normally needed to remain aloft. It stays in the air even if it takes no move actions to fly." You float in the air indefinitely, immobilized, unable to move in any way, just... sitting there! Totally.... awesome? Yeah...

Now the normal objection to this is that its moronic. Obviously you no longer HAVE hover. You no longer have any ability to fly at all. Heavy objects in midair that do not fly tend to fall. This is basic logic. But we're not dealing with basic logic here. We're dealing with ridiculous rules interpretation. And apparently we're supposed to be swallowing the line that someone who flies and loses the ability to fly remains airborne until he invokes the "crash" rule. And in fact, you can remain flying even in rounds after your flying magic expired, up until the moment that you invoke the crash rule. That's why the earlier debated powers let you remain airborne for an entire round in which you had no active flying magic.

Hovering creatures never invoke the crash rule. By "rules as written" (in my opinion, rules as interpreted in an instance where a rules glitch exists), you fly until you crash, and due to faulty universe programming, you never invoke the "crash" subroutine.

You fly forever.

This is hand jiving all over again, except worse.

 

[GAAAHHH]

Alright, punks! How about this one!

Energetic Flight, sorcerer 22. Lets you fly, and HOVER, until the end of your next turn.

Now lets interpret this using the interpretive lens that brought us this stupid ruling on flying.

It lets you fly, and hover, until the end of your next turn. So on this turn you fly straight up 30 feet and 10 feet over, and next turn you fly straight up another 30 feet and ten feet over.

Now, what happens next round?

Well, if this power did NOT grant hover, you'd stay in the air, poised 60 feet off the ground, unleashing magic on the suckers below. Then, because you didn't travel at least two spaces, you'd crash at the end of the round.

So what does the power do now, since it DOES grant hover?

It lets you stay in the air, poised 60 feet off the ground, unleashing magic on the suckers below. At the end of your turn you fall because you didn't move two... NO! Wait! That rule doesn't apply to you because you hover! "A monster that can hover... ... remains flying even if it did not move the minimum distance normally needed to remain aloft. It stays in the air even if it takes no move actions to fly." You float in the air indefinitely, immobilized, unable to move in any way, just... sitting there! Totally.... awesome? Yeah...

Now the normal objection to this is that its moronic. Obviously you no longer HAVE hover. You no longer have any ability to fly at all. Heavy objects in midair that do not fly tend to fall. This is basic logic. But we're not dealing with basic logic here. We're dealing with ridiculous rules interpretation. And apparently we're supposed to be swallowing the line that someone who flies and loses the ability to fly remains airborne until he invokes the "crash" rule. And in fact, you can remain flying even in rounds after your flying magic expired, up until the moment that you invoke the crash rule. That's why the earlier debated powers let you remain airborne for an entire round in which you had no active flying magic.

Hovering creatures never invoke the crash rule. By "rules as written" (in my opinion, rules as interpreted in an instance where a rules glitch exists), you fly until you crash, and due to faulty universe programming, you never invoke the "crash" subroutine.

You fly forever.

This is hand jiving all over again, except worse.

According to The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, that's what flying is. You throw yourself at the ground, and miss.

 

[yesnomu]

You seem to be presuming that flying and having a flight speed are two different things, but I'm not aware of any rule that makes such a distinction. Are you aware of such a rule? If so, please point it out to me.

Until then, the ruling by customer service seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Sure: Pg. 47 in the DMG. Everything about the move action "Fly" is built around the Movement: "a number of squares equal to your fly speed". You can't take the move action "Fly" without one. (You can spend a move action to use a power that lets you fly, but that's neither here nor there) You therefore can't use the section "Remaining in the Air", since that's an aspect of the Fly move action.

 

[SoulStorm]

Sure: Pg. 47 in the DMG. Everything about the move action "Fly" is built around the Movement: "a number of squares equal to your fly speed". You can't take the move action "Fly" without one. (You can spend a move action to use a power that lets you fly, but that's neither here nor there) You therefore can't use the section "Remaining in the Air", since that's an aspect of the Fly move action.

I just read that entire section and nowhere is there a distinction drawn between flying and having a fly speed. Until stated otherwise they are one in the same.

 

[yesnomu]

I just read that entire section and nowhere is there a distinction drawn between flying and having a fly speed. Until stated otherwise they are one in the same.

You've proven there's a rules gap, nothing else.

That section gives the rules for using a fly speed. We assume you use the same rules when you fly without one (which makes sense), but it still doesn't qualify as using the "Fly" action--what actually happens isn't spelled out. Granted, they need a section on flying without a flight speed, but that doesn't mean you can go and grant it the same effects of having one.

Seriously, you need to consider the Githyanki's Telekinetic Leap before you keep arguing this point. Do you seriously think a level 30 Githyanki Demigod can stay in the air indefinitely? Given the name and the flavor, I think it's pretty clear they can't--and the mechanics there are exactly the same.

 

[Cadfan]

Here's my best counter example. Mind you that all I'm trying to prove here is that the designers screwed up, the rules for flight in the DMG were written with winged flight and a flying speed in mind, and now we're getting glitches because powers that refer to flight only have that one section, written for a different purpose, to refer to.

A druid shifts into the form of a raven. In a particular turn, he flies 2 squares. Then he uses a minor action to turn into a rhinoceros. Then he attacks as a rhinoceros.

Now he remains in the air, as a rhinoceros. Next round he continues to attack as a rhinoceros. As a minor action he turns back into a bird, and as a move action he flies another two squares.

He can spend two full standard actions in mid air, as a rhinoceros, without falling.

I think its pretty safe to say that this is not the designer's intention. Whether there is a rules as written difference between "Fly: Move Action" on page 47 and the DMG and a move action granted by a power that lets you fly is one issue (though it does suggest an obvious question, what if a power let you fly as a free or minor action?). Whether the designers intended this outcome is another.

I think its pretty clear that they didn't.

Oh, and PS- Flight granted by a power that lets you hover leaves you floating in midair forever when it expires. By rules as written. If you believe this particular cserv argument. Which I do, only to the extent that I acknowledge a decent case can be made for it in the context of interpretation a set of rules drafted in error.