Arcane Power- Wizards Stretched Thin

[SoulStorm]

Seriously, you need to consider the Githyanki's Telekinetic Leap before you keep arguing this point. Do you seriously think a level 30 Githyanki Demigod can stay in the air indefinitely? Given the name and the flavor, I think it's pretty clear they can't--and the mechanics there are exactly the same.

Ok, I've read it. I still don't see the issue. The Githyanki flies for one round. If the Githyanki doesn't use a fly action to move at least two squares the following round it falls. I fail to see the issue.

Yep, sounds like a 30th level Githyanki Demigod who uses all of its encounter powers can fly indefinitely using telekinetic leap. I still don't see the problem. Yes, the extremely powerful 30th level Demigod power significantly changes the potential of a lot of encounter powers. Telekinetic leap is just one of many that is much more effective when it can be used every round. Who cares, we're talking about 30th level.

 

[SoulStorm]

Here's my best counter example. Mind you that all I'm trying to prove here is that the designers screwed up, the rules for flight in the DMG were written with winged flight and a flying speed in mind, and now we're getting glitches because powers that refer to flight only have that one section, written for a different purpose, to refer to.

A druid shifts into the form of a raven. In a particular turn, he flies 2 squares. Then he uses a minor action to turn into a rhinoceros. Then he attacks as a rhinoceros.

Now he remains in the air, as a rhinoceros. Next round he continues to attack as a rhinoceros. As a minor action he turns back into a bird, and as a move action he flies another two squares.

He can spend two full standard actions in mid air, as a rhinoceros, without falling.

I think its pretty safe to say that this is not the designer's intention. Whether there is a rules as written difference between "Fly: Move Action" on page 47 and the DMG and a move action granted by a power that lets you fly is one issue (though it does suggest an obvious question, what if a power let you fly as a free or minor action?). Whether the designers intended this outcome is another.

I think its pretty clear that they didn't.

Oh, and PS- Flight granted by a power that lets you hover leaves you floating in midair forever when it expires. By rules as written. If you believe this particular cserv argument. Which I do, only to the extent that I acknowledge a decent case can be made for it in the context of interpretation a set of rules drafted in error.

Rinoceros or mouse, gravity doesn't care either way. Again, I don't see the big deal, because turns aren't discreet entities that act in a vacuum. All opponents on the field act simultaneously. If the druid can pull off some badass shapeshifting flying stunt for two rounds, the only thing I have to say in response is kick ass!

Also, hover is dependent on the ability to fly each round. If you have a round when you can't fly, you also can't hover. Again, no problem. I don't know, the fly rules as written seem pretty good to me. And keep in mind, this comes from a person who has some definite issues with 4th edition.

This is a fantasy game with badass fantasy heroes. Let the heroes do what heroes do. Otherwise you may as well play accounting, the IRS files.

 

[Cadfan]

Rinoceros or mouse, gravity doesn't care either way. Again, I don't see the big deal, because turns aren't discreet entities that act in a vacuum. All opponents on the field act simultaneously. If the druid can pull off some badass shapeshifting flying stunt for two rounds, the only thing I have to say in response is kick ass!

To each his own, but I'm pretty sure that the whole point of clearly stating that the druid can't attack while shifted into a raven was to stop the druid from flying into the air, flying around, and launching attacks. Under this reading he can not only do that, he can even shift into a humanoid form and cast spells from altitude. I think its pretty clear that the designers didn't mean to give that out in the heroic tier.

Also, hover is dependent on the ability to fly each round. If you have a round when you can't fly, you also can't hover. Again, no problem. I don't know, the fly rules as written seem pretty good to me. And keep in mind, this comes from a person who has some definite issues with 4th edition.

I agree with you. Except this totally contradicts the whole interpretation you're backing.

 

[SoulStorm]

I agree with you. Except this totally contradicts the whole interpretation you're backing.

How so?

 

[mach1.9pants]

He can spend two full standard actions in mid air, as a rhinoceros, without falling.

Hehe sig-worthy. And I agree.

 

[Cadfan]

How so?

You are trying to argue that a person who flies in round 1, and then stops, crashes only by means of the application of the fly rules. This happens in round 2, a significant time after the flight ended.

To make this happen, you are applying the fly rules to a creature without flying. You're applying it to a creature that DID have flying, some time ago, but which hasn't got it anymore.

Ok.

Now what if the fly rules that creature operates under grant hover?

Well, at the end of the flight power, we apply the hovering flight rules. It doesn't fall. Next round, we apply the hovering flight rules. It continues not to fall. In fact, at no point will the hovering flight rules cause it to fall.

For your argument to make sense, you have to argue that a non flying creature in mid air who got there due to a power that granted hovering flight which has since expired IS subject to the rules for flying even though it cannot fly anymore since flying is how it got into the air, but IS NOT subject to the rules for hovering flight under precisely the same circumstances.

There is no reason at all to make that distinction.

If you are going to mechanistically apply the flying rules to a formerly flying creature and only cause it to crash when the fly rules say it should crash, then that's what you should do.

In this case the fly rules don't say that the creature crashes, because its governed by the "hovering" flight rules.

I agree that its silly to apply the hovering flight rules to a creature who no longer possesses hovering flight.

But its no less silly than applying the regular flight rules to a creature who no longer possesses regular flight.

If the general principle of "reference the rules for falling that are built into the power that got you into the air" are to be used, then we should actually use them. It just so happens that doing so breaks the game.

 

[yesnomu]

Yep, sounds like a 30th level Githyanki Demigod who uses all of its encounter powers can fly indefinitely using telekinetic leap. I still don't see the problem.

So, uh, you want to address the real issue here? Are you even going to attempt to defend your use of the "Fly" ruleset when its requirement (fly speed, explicitly stated) is missing?

Deliberately misquoting someone not only means you automatically lose the discussion - sort of the messageboard equivalent of Godwin's Law - it can get you threadbanned. Don't do it, please. ~ Piratecat

 

[SoulStorm]

~ we have a problem with people sidestepping the profanity filter in any way. If you've got a problem you can discuss it rationally or if you think it is serious, report it and moderators will handle it if necessary: Plane Sailing ~

 

[D'karr]

Yesnomu, or anyone else for that matter, never ****ing attribute quotes to me that I didn't write again!!! I have a major ****ing issue with that.

You might want to chill out. Usually when something like that happens it's by mistake. So getting all upset and "angry" about it and then reacting in that way becomes counterproductive.

 

[SoulStorm]

No, I'm not going to chill out about it. There was no mistake. It was deliberate and reprehensible. I'm just making it clear exactly how reprehensible. Perhaps next time people will think before pulling such a crap move.