Are 3 Armor Classes enough?

[ElectricDragon]

Generally, every character sheet has a place for 3 different AC's: normal, touch, and flat-footed. Has anyone else found the need for more?

Here are the ones that come up IMC with distressing regularity (including the ones on the character sheet).

1. AC: armor, deflection, Dexterity, dodge, insight, luck, natural armor, profane, sacred, shield, and size modifiers
2. Touch: no armor, natural armor, or shield bonuses
3. Flat-footed: no Dexterity or dodge bonuses (also used for running, climbing, balancing and failed swim checks)
4. Flat-footed Touch: no armor, Dexterity, dodge, natural armor, or shield bonuses
5. Incorporeal Touch: no armor, natural armor, or shield bonuses unless [Force] or ghost touch
6. Flat-footed Incorporeal Touch: no armor, natural armor, or shield bonuses unless [Force] or ghost touch, no Dexterity or dodge bonuses


And this is not mentioning the highly situational AC's/mods that occasionally poke their head out to slow down the game, like:

7. Caltrops: no armor, deflection, or shield bonuses (boots, shoes, or other footwear give +2 armor bonus that counts)
8. Deep Bog, Deep Pool, Waist deep in water: add +4 cover bonus to AC (+8 if Small size or crouch)
9. Blinded: no Dexterity bonus and -2 penalty
10. Entangled, Tanglefoot Bag: -4 penalty to Dexterity
11. Tower Shield: +4 shield bonus or +8 total cover bonus
etc.


I'm looking for a character sheet that at least has a place for the first 6 ACs (of course, some of my players are terrible at math and need such help to speed play; and none of them ever remember what doesn't get counted for touch AC much less any of the others).
Any suggestions?

Ciao
Dave

 

[Zaruthustran]

I think three is too many.

I'd rather that characters had two values: Defense, and Flat-footed Defense.

Regular old default Defense is what 3.5 calls "touch" ac. If you beat the Defense score, you hit the guy. What happens next depends on armor (armor as DR).

Flat-footed Defense would work like D&D 3.5: it's your Defense score, but without any Dex, dodge, or other bonuses that rely on awareness.

I get the sense that all the various AC values in 3.5 are confusing to newer, younger, or simply more casual players.

 

[ElectricDragon]

Personally, I've been playing usually weekly for 29 years. My players, though, do have less time playing than I (15 years, 12 years, 1 year, and 22 years).
We played tonight, and flatfooted touch AC came up. Surprise round, Touch spell against a flatfooted opponent: touch AC - dodge and Dexterity.

But during combat when I am running 8 monsters with various weapons and armors and dodge bonuses and ACs as well as 3 pack animals, lowered lighting conditions, and rough terrain, having to stop and figure out each AC for each creature because a common thing like surprise happened is rediculous. What if I'd thrown dread wraiths at them? Spring Attack from walls and floor, surprise, incorporeal touch, flatfooted, 50% miss chance, touch attacks, uncanny dodge, arrgh!

Personally, I've yet to see an armor as DR system that I could live with, or a system of Class Defense that goes up with level.

I guess I'll just have to make up my own 6AC place character sheets.

Ciao
Dave

 

[kjenks]

What's your Brilliant Energy AC?

What's your Shocking Grasp AC?

What's your AC with hastily donned armor?

What's your AC while helpless (effective Dex 0)?

 

[Nifft]

My favorite is flat-footed incorporeal touch AC, which actually happens more than you'd think, because incorporeal things frequently attack from behind total cover.

Yeah, character sheet needs more boxes.

Cheers, -- N

 

[RigaMortus2]

We've removed armor and modifiers to hit, and instead use a flat d2 roll. A 1 is a miss, and a 2 is a hit...

 

[Aust Diamondew]

We've removed armor and modifiers to hit, and instead use a flat d2 roll. A 1 is a miss, and a 2 is a hit...

Now I think this is too far in the opposite direction.