D&D (2024) Are Bishops "Clerics" or "Priests"

[tetrasodium]

A lot of this thread makes for good examples of why getting rid of NPC classes as a concept for the dm to slap on NPCs as justification for why this npc didn't have a statblock equivalent to a mundane commoner but couldn't simply go do a dangerous thing themselves.

 

[Storyteller Hero]

Bishop is a hierarchical title/position.

Cleric is a class of magic user.

Priest is a vocation/profession.

 

[cbwjm]

I think even since the tsr days, church's had priests with no magic, but temples never seemed to be represented in that way. All the leaders of the church were clerics, even low ranking members seemed to be clerics. Although it might have happened, I can't recall ever coming across a description of a temple where a handful were casters and the rest were 0-level members with no spell casting ability.

Something I'm sort of working on is a commoner class (more for fun than to actually be used) and one of thebpaths they can follow is the priesthood, they do gain spell power but as a 1/3 caster, and these are the people you're likely to meet at small villages or hamlets, able to cast a spell or two but no real access to high level magic.

 

[Chaosmancer]

My issue with this is that it changes what level 7 means to the PCs.

Is level 7 "you are a competent warrior", or is it "you are the best swordsman in the empire"?

So when you face pirates, are they competent warriors or are they strangely better than the best swordsmen in the empire?

This has knock on effects beyond world building -- in-adventure impacts. If PCs fighters at level 7 are world-class fighters, then seeing a dozen dirty pirates the PCs can very safely assume they aren't all world-class fighters. Because that would be ridiculous, wouldn't it?

In turn, this kind of information about the world means that the PCs can look at enemies, and have an idea if this is a "run away don't fight" or "curbstomp" situation, without the DM having to always telegraph it manually.

It also means that the DM is "forced" to up the stakes for higher level PCs. If level 7 PCs are "best in the empire", a fight against 15 pirates is not a suitable conflict, unless said pirates are somehow supernaturally insanely powerful. And if they are, the stakes are probably more than "we found some pirates".

A problem with D&D that many DMs complain about is how it their adventures stops working when players start getting L 5+ spells. But if the stakes of the game are consistent with the players level, when planeshift shows up it is appropriate for the game. L 7 they are world-class combatants; L 13, they can take a sunday brunch in heaven, L 17 they can reshape the world with an action.

OTOH, if at level 7 they are fighting mook pirates who are 75% as good as them, and at level 11 they are fighting mook pirates who are 75% as good as them, and and level 15 they are fighting mook pirates who are 75% as good as them... because you scale foes up to match the PCs capabilities, without scaling the narrative scale of the PCs abilities ... then suddenly entire categories of world-shaping spells start breaking the game.

I mean it can and does work! It just is an issue.

Yeah, I've run into this worldbuilding for a quest story/game version that I run. Where I've currently settled?

Levels 3 to 5 are trained warriors. Before this you have your new recruits and the people who don't see combat very often.
Levels 5 to 7 are specialists. The marine who is an action hero movie star type and can clean up a room of trained warriors.
Levels 7 to 9-ish are "best in the region" types. Maybe a city leader who doesn't adventure as much as they used to, or a war hero who retired. They aren't the pinnacle for an empire, but they'd be the top competitors in an empire wide tournament. An Emperor likely would have a handful of such individuals in their employ, and most powerful nobles probably have one.
Getting up to levels 11 to 13, you are the best. This is where, to shift analogies, I'd put the pope of a religion, or a Blessed Champion. These are once in a life time masters.

After that? You stop really having comparisons. Everyone in the world just starts wondering how what you are doing is possible, and speaks in hushed whispers about if you are the Reincarnation of THAT PERSON in your field who did this impossible task once and then died as a legendary hero.

On a note. The leaders of a religion, if DnD is to make logical sense, MUST be rather high level clerics or paladins (I've settled around level 9). Yes, in our world it makes sense that the leader of a global religion might be just an administrator, but we are dealing with a world where the gods are real, the demons are real, and your global religion is also likely keeping a few apocalypses in their bottles. No god with any sense is going to have the leader who knows where the god's secret weapon vault is located be a level 2 paper-pusher who is just beyond helpless if even a mid-tier threat can reach them. They are going to be blessed with so much magic, that even if they have no combat skills, they can still blast apart mid-tier threats.

Does it up the power of good in the world? Sure, but it needs to be upped a little bit or it stops making sense that evil hasn't crushed them to dust yet.

 

[ThrorII]

Yeah, I've run into this worldbuilding for a quest story/game version that I run. Where I've currently settled?

Levels 3 to 5 are trained warriors. Before this you have your new recruits and the people who don't see combat very often.
Levels 5 to 7 are specialists. The marine who is an action hero movie star type and can clean up a room of trained warriors.
Levels 7 to 9-ish are "best in the region" types. Maybe a city leader who doesn't adventure as much as they used to, or a war hero who retired. They aren't the pinnacle for an empire, but they'd be the top competitors in an empire wide tournament. An Emperor likely would have a handful of such individuals in their employ, and most powerful nobles probably have one.
Getting up to levels 11 to 13, you are the best. This is where, to shift analogies, I'd put the pope of a religion, or a Blessed Champion. These are once in a life time masters.

After that? You stop really having comparisons. Everyone in the world just starts wondering how what you are doing is possible, and speaks in hushed whispers about if you are the Reincarnation of THAT PERSON in your field who did this impossible task once and then died as a legendary hero.

On a note. The leaders of a religion, if DnD is to make logical sense, MUST be rather high level clerics or paladins (I've settled around level 9). Yes, in our world it makes sense that the leader of a global religion might be just an administrator, but we are dealing with a world where the gods are real, the demons are real, and your global religion is also likely keeping a few apocalypses in their bottles. No god with any sense is going to have the leader who knows where the god's secret weapon vault is located be a level 2 paper-pusher who is just beyond helpless if even a mid-tier threat can reach them. They are going to be blessed with so much magic, that even if they have no combat skills, they can still blast apart mid-tier threats.

Does it up the power of good in the world? Sure, but it needs to be upped a little bit or it stops making sense that evil hasn't crushed them to dust yet.

I tend to go a similar route (we play B/X-OSE)
Level 1 are standard men-at-arms, wizard's apprentices, acolytes, etc.
Level 2-3 are veteran warriors, worthy mages, clerical priests, competent thieves.
Level 4-8 are captain of the guard, the most powerful magic-user in a small city, the bishop of a city. They are the top 10% of their class.
Level 9-11 are the greatest warriors of a realm, powerful wizards, patriarchs of a faith. They are the top 1% in power.
Levels 12-14 are legendary. There is no equal to them. They are the paragons of their classes, and their names will live for centuries after them.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

I mean one of the basic, often unspoken conceits of gaming is the idea that the boss has greater personal power compared to their followers. High status characters are expected to have high combat stats. It goes against the grain to make someone in a leadership positions just another commoner whose social status has nothing to do with physical prowess or magical ability.

In a world where adventurers (and basically only adventurers) acquire personal powers of physical prowess and magical ability which make them many orders of magnitude more capable than ordinary humans it does make sense that the people in high status positions would disproportionately be retired adventurers. While being a bishop does not give you Cleric levels, having Cleric levels means that if you felt like settling down to go be a bishop, you could probably swing that.

 

[NotAYakk]

I mean one of the basic, often unspoken conceits of gaming is the idea that the boss has greater personal power compared to their followers. High status characters are expected to have high combat stats. It goes against the grain to make someone in a leadership positions just another commoner whose social status has nothing to do with physical prowess or magical ability.

In a world where adventurers (and basically only adventurers) acquire personal powers of physical prowess and magical ability which make them many orders of magnitude more capable than ordinary humans it does make sense that the people in high status positions would disproportionately be retired adventurers. While being a bishop does not give you Cleric levels, having Cleric levels means that if you felt like settling down to go be a bishop, you could probably swing that.

This assumes that PC power growth via XP and adventuring is normal in your world.

It ain't in mine. Because it seems silly to me.

 

[Stalker0]

While being a bishop does not give you Cleric levels, having Cleric levels means that if you felt like settling down to go be a bishop, you could probably swing that.

This does give an interesting notion to how the power hierarchy would go if you assume bishops did not have big spells.

Could a 5th level cleric just walk up to a Bishop and claim higher religious authority? (god gave me spells, I clearly speak for him more than you). I could certainly see players attempting that argument.

 

[Shardstone]

This is a detail that I do not sweat - I just give NPCs the power needed as the plot requires. In terms of the overall world...meh. Whether or not a typical priest can do some magic doesn't make a difference so I don't worry about it. I mean, realistically I suppose it would, but almost everything about a typical fantasy setting falls apart if we start worrying about realism.



Bravo!

This is only true if your table doesnt like applying logic to fantasy worlds. Please stop assuming we have to play by your standards, or that your view is objective. This isnt a disagree on how to narratively handle classes, but instead your core gatekeeping perspective.

 

[Quickleaf]

Its a subtle thing noted in the one dnd document on clerics, but in the document it mentions how rare clerics are supposed to be. They are a unique exception in the world, a rare thing.

So when you think of the typical holy man in a village, or religious leader in a big city (like bishop) does the narrative assume these are the clerics, or are these still just "priests".

And if they are priests what is the difference? Do priests not get spells from their gods? Does that mean only clerics are generally capable of healing in the world (and so is healing actually very rare?).


This is a world building element I've often thought about, and so what do you all think?

I'm a big fan of "non-conforming" NPC spellcasters who don't rely on the PHB spellcasting rules, especially when it comes to priests, shamans, hedge mages, and so on.

For example, I'll include a priest of Amaunator who can perform a "blessing of the lanterns and torches" which extends burn time / resistance to being snuffed out of a party's flaming light sources, or a Village Pellar who can break spells/curses/permanent polymorphs if the right ritual components are gathered.