Are Buff Spells Overpowered?

[apsuman]

Let me say it again:
The primary reason why you use buff spells is that you can cast them well before combat. The secondary reason is that they provide very good benefits. The fact that those benefits come without taking up any of your precious actions during combat is the most important thing.

Roand-

Yeah, but you do use up your precious spell slots. Having an enemy engage, fade, and wait can really ruin your day.

You said...
...Persistent Shield, Mage Armor, Polymorph Self, Stoneskin, Tenser’s Transformation, Haste, Improved Invisibility, Protection from Good/Evil, Greater Magic Weapon, Fly, and Endurance...

that's eleven spells. At level 12 (lowest needed to cast Tenser's) the "base" wizard (i.e. not counting int bonuses) only has 20 spells (I excluded cantrips). With a high Int, (start at 18, add 3 inherit bonuses, ass a headband of intellect + 3, heck include spellcasting prodigy for an effective INT of 26) that goes up to what? maybe 35 spells per day. And you want to use one third of his precious spells -- i would hope he could kick a smae level fighter to town and back.

I thought that scrolls were always considered to have their DC set by the minimum level (and int/cha) of the caster. So scrolls would not have those killer DCs. Stock up all you want.

In any event, I don't think that buffs are broken. I think that wizards and sorcerers are SUPPOSE to be kickin's at those levels.

g!

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Elric presents some excellent points. My personal opinion is it isn't really a problem until ~12th level where Extended and Quicken spells get extremely potent, convenient, and available. As others have pointed out, 3rd, 4th, and 5th level slots are too precious to casually use them on buffs at low-mid levels.

But once you get to those higher levels, Extended GMW and Extended Endurance/Bull's Strength/Cat's Grace is too easy in my book. I particularly dislike how Extended GMW makes it too simple to have a +4 or +5 weapon handy; it seems like a cheesy way to get the advantages of what should be a legendary weapon. I wouldn't touch Persistent Spell with a 10' pole. Just in my opinion.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Elric presents some excellent points. My personal opinion is it isn't really a problem until ~12th level where Extended and Quicken spells get extremely potent, convenient, and available. As others have pointed out, 3rd, 4th, and 5th level slots are too precious to casually use them on buffs at low-mid levels.

But once you get to those higher levels, Extended GMW and Extended Endurance/Bull's Strength/Cat's Grace is too easy in my book. I particularly dislike how Extended GMW makes it too simple to have a +4 or +5 weapon handy; it seems like a cheesy way to get the advantages of what should be a legendary weapon. I wouldn't touch Persistent Spell with a 10' pole. Just in my opinion.

Well keep in mind that Elric's points also assume a party double the size of the standard party and heavy on single classed spellcasters. I've only been in one party where that was actually the case in over two years of gaming.

At those levels dispel magic and Greater Dispellings should also be pretty common as should bad guys who are able to buff themselves, etc.

As for persistent Spell, I don't actually think it's unreasonable. There are not a whole lot of spells it is actually useful for (Shield, Divine Favor, Detect Magic, Detect Secret Doors, Detect Evil, Detect Chaos, Detect Law, Detect Undead, Detect Thoughts, See Invisible, Blink (rather annoying as a 24/7 effect), Divine Power, Divine Might, Lesser Aspect of the Deity, and that's about it). OF those, only Divine Power is overpowered IMO.

 

[ashockney]

High level parties live with:

Con Buff
Haste

fighter types also...

Str Buff

Rogues/Monks/and some Wiz/Sorc...
Dex Buff

Monks...
Wis Buff

plus, of course prime requisite Buff.

Most of the above will come from permanent items, when it doesn't it will come from a potion or scroll (3 hour duration for 150gp). Hee, hee. That's funny!

Boots of Haste/Monk's Belt/"Haste" Bonus on armor...ehhhewww.

Just some experiences from the two campaigns we've run in third edition. DM's must tweak the hell out of the villians, especially the BBEG.

Here's the indication that all of the above is broken. If what you find yourself doing is "buffing" up all the villians with all of the above, guess what...

I don't think that's what the designers intended with third edition, I may be wrong, but it sure seems like a waste of time. If this was true, the least designers could do is begin providing the "buffed up" stats along with all the villians in the MM and published adventures.

Don't get me started on Persistent Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might! (Of course followed with Quickened Bless and Quickened Prayer).

 

[Destil]

But once you get to those higher levels, Extended GMW and Extended Endurance/Bull's Strength/Cat's Grace is too easy in my book. I particularly dislike how Extended GMW makes it too simple to have a +4 or +5 weapon handy; it seems like a cheesy way to get the advantages of what should be a legendary weapon. I wouldn't touch Persistent Spell with a 10' pole. Just in my opinion.

This bothers me a bit, as well... only because of the existing weapon rules and how you can make a +1 shocking, Flamingg, Icy, Thundering, Chaotic, Holy et cetera ad nadusiom weapon. Personaly I'd be more inclined to change the magic weapon rules so that you can't give a weapon more than it's enchancment bonus in special abilities (so no flaming keen blades unless it's also +2), rather than just a mininum of +1.

Persistant spell. Worst... feat... ever. Since when does a drawback make a spell better. [I.E. a personal range haste would be beter than the touch range spell, if you allow this feat, so forget about alowing any custom spells]. In my mind if you can't get a spell's duration to at least 24 hours with 4 extends, there's no way in the nine hells it should be allowed to last that long.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

As for persistent Spell, I don't actually think it's unreasonable. There are not a whole lot of spells it is actually useful for (Shield, Divine Favor, Detect Magic, Detect Secret Doors, Detect Evil, Detect Chaos, Detect Law, Detect Undead, Detect Thoughts, See Invisible, Blink (rather annoying as a 24/7 effect), Divine Power, Divine Might, Lesser Aspect of the Deity, and that's about it). OF those, only Divine Power is overpowered IMO.

Mechanicwise, it is very sloppy to lump together a diverse and peculiar list of spells. Furthermore, I think it is a Bad Thing to "arbitrarily" take some spells that have 1 round per level durations and other spells that have, say, 10 minutes per level, and boost them all to a 24 hour duration. That makes me very nervous with respect to play balance.

As Destil astutely points out, making a disadvantage into an advantage is completely reckless. Being fast and loose about disadvantages is exactly why Boots of Striding & Springing were originally listed as 2500 gp. A 1st level spell is a 1st level spell, right? Wrong!

 

[ruleslawyer]

Mechanicwise, it is very sloppy to lump together a diverse and peculiar list of spells. Furthermore, I think it is a Bad Thing to "arbitrarily" take some spells that have 1 round per level durations and other spells that have, say, 10 minutes per level, and boost them all to a 24 hour duration. That makes me very nervous with respect to play balance.

Interesting; I actually tend to think that Persistent Spell is only worthwhile on spells with a 1 round per level duration. Extend is otherwise a MUCH cheaper means of accomplishing the same thing. Personally, I don't find PS overpowered at all, with the exception of persistent divine power, which simply serves to show what a bad idea the divine power spell is.

It's funny that so many of you are sniping at the splatbook buffs, when the worst buffs by far are found in the PHB. To be precise, polymorph other and haste, the worst buffs of all. (Actually, IMHO, all the potential you need for rules abuse is right in the PHB. The planar ally line of spells, simulacra, poly spells, haste, scrying, etc., all are capable of pushing a party's power vastly beyond a DM's potential to cope using modules out of the box.)

In any event, I propose the following house rules:

1) Ability buffs provide a +4 enhancement bonus to the relevant ability, period. No variable element means no empowering; it's also easier on the DM.

2) Either remove poly other from your game entirely, raise the spell level substantially, or create a mental change rule similar to that in previous editions. The spell is just insane as written.

3) GMW gives you a +2 weapon, period. I see no reason why PCs shouldn't pay for their magic weapons rather than get to add +5 enhancement bonus to their weapons for free, willy-nilly.

4) No mental stat buffs. Again, you want to spend the time, gold, and XP to make the items, fine. Mental stat buffs are just too good for spellcasters, and often can create a vicious cycle where spellcasters gain bonus spells for the higher ability score and can simply memorize an additional spell to replace the spent buff spell.

Personally, I don't think the buff spell durations need lowering. It would also nerf these spells almost entirely to lower their durations, since it'll be difficult for casters to cast more than one or two buff spells per day. After all, if putting out the entire suite of buff spells on your party takes a minute or two, they'll be gone sooon enough after casting's finished given the new durations, right?

 

[rhammer2]

4) No mental stat buffs. Again, you want to spend the time, gold, and XP to make the items, fine. Mental stat buffs are just too good for spellcasters, and often can create a vicious cycle where spellcasters gain bonus spells for the higher ability score and can simply memorize an additional spell to replace the spent buff spell.

This isn't a problem, no mental buff SPELL gives the caster bonus spells. All the caster gets out of them is an increased DC.

 

[Simulacrum]

Yes, and you cant empower any spell so that it gives more than a +6 enhancement bonus to any score. This is a hard rule.
No expetions. This means you can empower Bulls strengths once just for the lousy +1 you get....*lol* how stupid.
Polymorph is revised in TB the PHB version is invalid.
Polymorph is by no way overpowerd. It's 4th level spell, what makes it overpowered?
1. If you change to anything than humanoid, you lose all you euipment, nothing works anymore for the duration.
It's a permanent spell, someone gota dispel it sometimes ;O)
2. You dont get any special abilities or additional attacks.
-
The impression why some things are overpowered or unbalanced is often created by incompetent DM's and rule abusing players who don't look at the rules exactly, just looking at possible benefits cheating around restrictions and guidelines without the DM noticing.
Still an incompetent DM without the ability to cope with the rules system, just to make it an EVEN game is the worst thing!

 

[Plane Sailing]

This isn't a problem, no mental buff SPELL gives the caster bonus spells. All the caster gets out of them is an increased DC.

unless, of course, the buff lasts for more than 24 hours, in which case it does give them bonus spells - it is effectively indistinguishable from having a headband of intellect in that case, and nobody disputes you get bonus spells from that.