D&D 5E Are "evil gods" necessary? [THREAD NECRO]

[Mercurius]

The easy answer: not necessary, but useful.

I'm a bit proponent of the "build your own cosmology" approach, and am even considering making a guide for doing so. It really depends upon you and how you want to build your world; what gods are, and where divine/clerical power is derived from.

If you want to create a more contemporary vibe you could base it off of Jungian archetypes: the gods are energetic patterns within the collective unconscious, that can drawn upon for for power through training and--in the case of clerics--faith and adherence to said archetypes.

 

[TheDelphian]

I use the approach in my campaigns of the Gods are just the embodiment of a concept. while their are "evil" gods they are considered "Evil" by mortals or people not because they are. The God of lies does not care if your lie was to deceive for money or to compliment someone so you did not hurt their feelings, a little white lie. Either fuels the god themselves. Now the severity makes a difference but a million white lies adds up to a grand scheme to con the royal jewels away from the king.

It is in part why paladins and clerics take oaths very seriously and why they hold to certain codes of behavior. Some more than others.

I also pretty much ignore alignment letting players use it as much as they like but not something I even consider. Some use it to help define their character and guide their actions but Lawful could mean the same to them as the word civilized does to me. It is a convenient label.

Now I do use the concept of chaotic, evil, good etc when it comes to extraplanar beings. Devils, demons etc are inherent forces of their specific alignments as much as devas, angels etc are as well. They are expressions of that or the embodiment of their alignment but anyone beyond that orcs, humans etc are just folk raised in a certain way with some racial (or ancestry or whatever it will be called now days) tendency to certain ways. Orcs tend to be violent inherently in my world. Not good or bad just violent and brutish. Most civilized folk see them as evil though.

The gods interact with clerics or other divine caster almost more as acts of faith or the ability for a person to draw on that focal point that is a god not because a god wants or wills it to be. The Gods don't have agendas so to speak so they don't have schemes or plans or any of that they are GODS beyond such mortal affairs. Mortals however have all those things. Demons, devils, devas angels all have those things. It seems to work pretty well for me. YMMV.

 

[dave2008]

Gods have portfolios. Spheres of influences. In the case of evil evil portfolios. Take tyranny. You can have gods and devils.
Gods have home realms in the Planes. And have always been more powerful then demons or devils.

Not really. Not only do demons and devils become gods in D&D lore, but in the lore of 4e, Demogorgoan killed a god (after it split its head in two) and Orcus was killing a god (the raven queen and would have / did succeed if the PCs don't intervene) and is considered a rival to Vecna. I believe the god Torog was weaker than both Orcus and Demogorgon (by stat block at least)

 

[dave2008]

Just a quick note on RL mythologies: what we typically read about in school or see in movies is not the whole story. Even all the archaeological evidence in the world cannot tell us the truth of what people believed, how they practiced, and the tales they told. Given how varied our contemporary religions are perceived and practiced, I imagine ancient people had as many different opinions and versions of their gods as needed to support their world views.

 

[Lanefan]

Are evil deities necessary? Yes.
Ditto good deities, lawful deities, chaotic deities and neutral deities.

Having major demons and devils take the place of evil deities just makes those beings into deities, so why bother - unless the implication is that evil clerics shouldn't be able to get divinely-granted spells, which is just dumb.

 

[Laurefindel]

Interestingly the indigenous peoples of Paraguay had a clergy of prophets who didn't worship gods, instead the Prophets taught that the World was evil and that a Land without Evil existed beyond the mountains - these prophets would go from village to village gathering followers for the next migration. There were a few migrations noted by the Spanish (such as from Brazil to Peru in 1539) which lead to Spanish beleif in El Dorado

Yes, many of the native people of the americas had a completely different approach to spirituality/religion (from Europeans at least) - and you can already play a cleric without a patron god - but it is still a religion, and they are still their priests/devotees. While it is very low on my list of "things to change about D&D", sometimes I wish that the cleric was completely detached from religion of any kind. Like a fighter or a wizard. Basically just another magical tradition.

 

[Tonguez]

Are evil deities necessary? Yes.
Ditto good deities, lawful deities, chaotic deities and neutral deities.

Having major demons and devils take the place of evil deities just makes those beings into deities, so why bother - unless the implication is that evil clerics shouldn't be able to get divinely-granted spells, which is just dumb.

Why are evil deities necessary? And why cant an evul cleric get spells for good deities?
Take Ilmater for instance, LG god with life domain. Yet his followers allowed necromancy and would aggressively hunt down followers of Loviatar, slay everyone associated and burn their temples to the ground.

Equally Bane is the strict and scheming god of Tyranny. He’s a scheming dictator who wants to rule the world, but is that Evil? A Bane Crusader dedicated to crushing those who do not serve Bane’s Law could see himself as good,

 

[Benjamin Olson]

The lore of devils and demons basically originates with a derogatory characterization of other people's gods by Abrahamic religions. Many of the top D&D Devils and Demons share their names with various forgotten Middle Eastern deities. So yes, they fill the same roll as evil gods. However, "God" is usually used to describe a being more powerful than a devil or demon, so there is an inherent presumption of evil being less powerful in a cosmology where there are no evil entities who can rise to the level of godhood.

This returns us to the reason monotheistic Jews, Christians, and Muslims wanted to characterize other people's gods as not being gods in the first place: their own God had to be more powerful than the little pissant entities other people were worshiping.

 

[Mercurius]

Are evil deities necessary? Yes.
Ditto good deities, lawful deities, chaotic deities and neutral deities.

Having major demons and devils take the place of evil deities just makes those beings into deities, so why bother - unless the implication is that evil clerics shouldn't be able to get divinely-granted spells, which is just dumb.

But the nature of "deities" is malleable. I see and agree with your point that if evil clerics exist and they draw their power from evil sources, then some kind of "deity-force" is involved, but that force would be any number of things: pantheonic gods, devils and demons, psychic negative emotions, Jungian archetypes, energetic patterns, etc.

 

[Lanefan]

Why are evil deities necessary? And why cant an evul cleric get spells for good deities?

Because good deities would not grant them, unless the petitioner had a rather significant change of outlook?

Take Ilmater for instance, LG god with life domain. Yet his followers allowed necromancy and would aggressively hunt down followers of Loviatar, slay everyone associated and burn their temples to the ground.

Therefore, either not an LG deity or an LG deity with very severe discipline issues among his clerics.

Equally Bane is the strict and scheming god of Tyranny. He’s a scheming dictator who wants to rule the world, but is that Evil? A Bane Crusader dedicated to crushing those who do not serve Bane’s Law could see himself as good,

So, LE; as would be the crusader. Simple.