D&D General Are Hit Points Meat? (Redux): D&D Co-Creator Saw Hit Points Very Differently

D&D co-creator Dave Arneson wasn't a fan of hit points increasing with level. According to the excellent Jon Peterson's Playing at the World he felt that hit points should be fixed at character creation, with characters becoming harder to hit at higher levels.

Of course, this is an early example of the oft-lengthily and vehemently discussed question best summarised as ‘Are hit points meat?’— a debate which has raged for over 40 years and isn’t likely to be resolved today! (but no they’re not)

Arneson's Hit Points for Characters

Game Wizards is very decidedly not a book about who invented which system in D&D. But early drafts of the book did track one design choic...

playingattheworld.blogspot.com

Arneson later created a hit point equation in his 1979 RPG Adventures in Fantasy which was a game in which he hoped to correct "the many errors in the original rules".

 

[Minigiant]

That's an incredibly valuable thing, especially for bringing new blood into the hobby. The fact that such a thing can conflict with the (perfectly cromulent) desire for a "zero-to-hero" story, where classic fans WANT that risk of getting splattered for making one wrong move, is why D&D desperately needs a robust "zero levels"/"novice levels" system built into the PHB. That way, the default--which is where newbies are going to start--will be welcoming and effective for introducing them to the hobby, while the well-supported option to go for high lethality remains for those who want to opt into doing that.

5e was close but you became a full on trained apprentice at level 3.

I think 0e had it right with rangers. A level 1 PC should get 2HD. Therefore a 0th level PC would have 1HD based on type. A level1 wizard gets a 1d8 for being human and 1d4 for being a wizard.

Level	Hit Die	HD Type
0th	1HD of Meat	Meat based on Type
1st	1HD of Meat 1HD of Stamina	Stamina based on Class
2nd	1HD of Meat 1HD of Stamina, 1HD of Luck	Luck based of Genre
3rd	1HD of Meat 2HD of Stamina 1HD of Luck	Stamina based on Class
4th	1HD of Meat 3HD of Stamina 1HD of Luck	Stamina based on Class
5th	1HD of Meat 4HD of Stamina 1HD of Luck	Stamina based on Class

It would be a bit more complex but it fixes a lot of the questions

 

[Thomas Shey]

What is dismaying to me, is that because so many people come to roleplaying through D&D, a lot of gamers seem to feel that "this is how health and combat is supposed to work for RPGs". Since so many gamers seem loathe or unwilling to learn new non-d20 game systems, it exacerbates this notion. I kind of wonder how gamers feel like when they learn a system doesn't have to have hit points as luck, there are rules for blocking/dodging, that armor soaks damage instead of reducing the odds to hit (and can even make you easier to hit), or that there are alternative initiative systems etc.

I have a hunch that if more people were exposed to other game systems that handle combat and health differently, then more people would be willing to have a radical change to how D&D handles it.

My suspicion is that the majority of gamers who feel damage is inconsistent either gave up fighting about it (because D&D is what most others want to play) or they are not really bothered by the inconsistencies enough to try another game system. I also feel that one of the reasons hit points wasn't changed to be meat, was that if they changed that, they would have to change other rules too. Like how AC works, or add some karma/fate pool, and change how healing works. They would probably also have to add in rules for dodging/parrying, and then factor that into the initiative system (how many times can you parry a turn?). In other words, tweaking one thing causes a cascade of other effects that would also need to be changed.

Well, honestly when there's enough people in an area who are bothered by it, they tend to spin off to other things, and in some cases never come back, so they don't impact the D&D part of the hobby material appreciably.

 

[Dausuul]

There is such a system in 5e. It is called levels one and two. All is needed is big box that says that it is fine to start on level three if you want to avoid 'can be killed by a cat' experience.

A novice to the game will, quite reasonably, assume that the place to start is level 1. They have no reason to expect that "killed by a cat" is a thing they need to watch out for. If they see such a box, it will simply confuse them, and many will go with "I don't know what the deal is with that box. Let's just start at level 1." And then they have a bad experience, which they did not have to have.

The default settings of D&D should be tuned to provide the best experience for the typical novice. It's us, the enfranchised players and DMs, who should be asked to customize the settings if we prefer a different playstyle. We have the knowledge and the skill to do that.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

A novice to the game will, quite reasonably, assume that the place to start is level 1. They have no reason to expect that "killed by a cat" is a thing they need to watch out for. If they see such a box, it will simply confuse them, and many will go with "I don't know what the deal is with that box. Let's just start at level 1." And then they have a bad experience, which they did not have to have.

They will know 'killed by a cat' is a thing if the box tells them that! If you add some weird zero or -1 level newbies can just as easily start on that and have a bad experience.

 

[Dausuul]

They will know 'killed by a cat' is a thing if the box tells them that!

No. They won't. Half of them won't even look in the box, assuming it to be optional and not meant for them. The other half will look in the box and be confused: Wait, am I supposed to do something here? Why is the game asking me what level to start at? Don't you start at one? And the typical new-user response to confusion is to wave the whole thing off and proceed with default settings*, on the assumption that those defaults were chosen for good reason.

When someone is new to your system, they are busy trying to understand the most basic concepts. Trying to explain the nuances of configuration options goes right over their head.

*Or to decide the whole thing is too confusing and bail.

If you add some weird zero or -1 level newbies can just as easily start on that and have a bad experience.

No, they won't--because the exact same process I just described will play out, where they see the optional setting, assume it isn't meant for them, and proceed with defaults. The difference is, that assumption will be right.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

No. They won't. Half of them won't even look in the box, assuming it to be optional and not meant for them. The other half will look in the box and be confused: Wait, am I supposed to do something here? Why is the game asking me what level to start at? Don't you start at one? And the typical new-user response to confusion is to wave the whole thing off and proceed with default settings*, on the assumption that those defaults were chosen for good reason.

When someone is new to your system, they are busy trying to understand the most basic concepts. Trying to explain the nuances of configuration options goes right over their head.

*Or to decide the whole thing is too confusing and bail.


No, they won't--because the exact same process I just described will play out, where they see the optional setting, assume it isn't meant for them, and proceed with defaults. The difference is, that assumption will be right.

So label levels one and two ‘optional’. No need to invent some bizarre zero or negative levels.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The problem with HP is that spells are named wrong.
Cure wounds should be called: refresh
Healing word should be called: rousing word.
Maybe they should only be able to heal you as long as you are above 0 hp.
For someone at 0, you need an actual "cure wound" spell.

 

[Stalker0]

So label levels one and two ‘optional’. No need to invent some bizarre zero or negative levels.

The way modern board games do it is something like this:

“If this is your first time playing, use the rules for creating a 1st level character…

After you are familiar with the game, we recommend starting at 3rd level”

 

[Neonchameleon]

The problem with HP is that spells are named wrong.
Cure wounds should be called: refresh
Healing word should be called: rousing word.
Maybe they should only be able to heal you as long as you are above 0 hp.
For someone at 0, you need an actual "cure wound" spell.

Out of curiosity what should a "hit" in combat be called? Are you not hitting someone with your axe when you roll to hit and you hit?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Out of curiosity what should a "hit" in combat be called? Are you not hitting someone with your axe when you roll to hit and you hit?

Depression. Having axe swing so close to your gead is a traumatic experience. When you run out of hit points you just lose your will to live and die. No one is ever actually hit or physically hurt though.