Are Mega-Adventures / APs Bad?

[TerraDave]

First, off topic but in your post, the hardness of GMing outside D&D is something I know about and hear about quite a bit from others. Good topic for another thread.

Second, on topic. As implied by others, the solution was to run some side trecks to give extra XP and break things up a little.

Also, in the AP (or whatever it is), saver your milestones (the various accomplishments scattered through the adventures). Don't make everything feel like it depends on the final showdown. Especially since you may never get there; for a number of reasons.

 

[werk]

I don't think they are bad...just boring.

But I can only dungeon crawl for a session or two before I start stabbing myself. YMMV.

 

[takasi]

Players who have issues with APs usually have the same issues with any mod-based campaign: if closer the DM follows the adventure as written, the more story centered the game becomes.

Is this bad? No. Can some people find faults in it? Yes.

When you ask someone if they want to play D&D, there are, IMO, four iconic campaign styles to play:

Story Driven Campaign
Examples: Adventure Paths, Modules, RPGA
Advantages: Players can usually easily come and go without affecting upcoming plot arcs, gameplay is generally balanced, the story might motivate players to see it to the end, excellent for meeting new players in a more formal atmosphere
Disadvantages: Player character backgrounds have little to do with overall plot, generally little room for freeform exploration, some players might not like the story

Exploration Driven Campaign
Examples: Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Eberron Campaign Setting
Advantages: Players can usually easily come and go as the focus is more towards the world rather than the characters, players are free to explore a dynamic world that isn't catered to their party makeup
Disadvantages: Players may disagree on where to go, player character backgrounds are not always center stage, the world isn't catered to their party makeup thus they can explore areas that may be too dangerous for their party, a general lack of metaplot that guides players where to go

Character Driven Campaign
Examples: Complete Series, Races Series, PHB 2
Advantages: Players almost exclusively determine the metaplot based on their character creations
Disadvantages: Difficult to deal with player absences and new players, player background conflicts can result in arguments over metaplot direction

Action Driven Campaign
Examples: Dungeon Crawl Classics, Expedition to Undermountain, Fantastic Locations
Advantages: Players can come and go, metagaming and min-maxing can be encouraged, different levels of play can be introduced at any time
Disadvantages: Players may complain of shallow roleplay experience, exploration is limited to the dungeon or plot railroad, few non-combat decisions

If you're going to run an AP, players need to understand that you're running one. One person might be expecting a game where the group is going to return to the Underdark because a player's character was exiled from there, another might want to see a big map of the world and ask questions about the best place to hunt for dragons, and another might just want to try out a 11th level dread necromancer one week and then see if a 15th level duskblade is balanced the next. None of these people are going to be happy if you say "Hey let's play D&D" and then start them off in Cauldron at 1st level. Explain to them that you've chosen to run a story driven game, and make sure they understand what that means.

I'm very lucky to have several opportunities to play multiple types of games. When we could only run one campaign, I chose APs (Age of Worms), because it was easiest for me to run and my players wanted to play it to the end.

 

[Sunderstone]

Few easy guidelines to AP/Mega campaigns...

1) New DM's probably shouldnt run them - Experienced DM's will know what their group is capable of and can adjust encounters on the fly as needed.

2) A BALANCED Party is needed - Too many people have posted about TPKs in various forums. When I read their threads about party composition prior to their TPK threads, I chuckle to myself. I blame some of this on the flood of splatbooks, some on the DMs who let their players start an AP with such an unbalanced party.
Im all for allowing the group to play what they want but as long as there is a balanced mix.

3) Make sure you know the likes of your group - Ask the players if they would be into a long campaign with one overall EPIC plot (subplots aside). Some groups prefer the smaller modules.


That aside, they arent bad as long as you and your players know what you want to do. Personally, I love the epic stuff.

 

[Arnwyn]

Sometimes, when DMing, I would look at the challenges ahead in a mega-adventure and say, there is no way the group can beat this. Maybe in 2 or 3 levels they can. But what do you do until then? Does a good DM weaken the encounter (and thus everything that follows, because the encounters in APs never stay static or get easier)? Or should the DM handwave a few extra levels of experience onto his PCs?

Neither, at least for us. We come across this all the time, and we handle it by taking on sidequests and extra adventures.

I know you said this:

I tried to add sidequests and smaller adventures during my running of Shackled City, and it turned out that we were spending more time playing them than the actual Adventure Path.

But for our group, this is only a good thing.


(In any case, we love mega-adventures and APs, and prefer them over most else.)

 

[ShinHakkaider]

It depends on your group. My present group doesn't mind and I specifically sought out players who wouldn't mind me running published adventures (specifically AP's). One thing that I would never do is run them with no regard for the specific party and players at my table. Part of my goal in running the AP's is to make the situation important to the PC's somehow, whether they give me their own hooks or I create some they get tied into the situation at hand somehow.

Also I tend to read ahead in the adventure paths and use certain things to set up later adventures. Right now I'm running 3 Faces of Evil from the Age of Worms AP. At the end of the Whispering Cairn the PC Paladin who lives as part of the Garrison at Diamond Lake came back and ran into some soldier freinds of his from the garrison who told him that their commissions were almost up. For thier last stint of duty they were being moved to Blackwall Keep, because of the recent Lizard Man activity in the area. They sat around with the Paladin and lamented about how much they hated the swamp and that is was crap assignment but looked forward to heading to the Free City when thier tour was up.

Just taking 15 min to set that up gives the Paladin a reason to care when he heads off to Balckwall Keep in a few sessions and finds it under attack by Lizard men. He has friends in there who may be dead, wounded or alive.

In short, own the AP. Don't let it own you.

 

[takasi]

In short, own the AP. Don't let it own you.

While that sounds good in theory, it's not just the DM who needs to own the AP. The players need to understand that they are playing an AP. In your paladin example, what happens if your paladin doesn't want to go to the Free City? What if he feels a duty to remain at the Garrison, or to protect Blackwall Keep? The simple answer is that, outside of the game, your players need to be able to "take a hint" from the DM and follow the metaplot. You most certainly need to make incentives for the players in character to follow the plot, but the players need to face the inevitable conclusion that in order for the AP to run they need to follow the main hooks. If they adamantly refuse and wish to explore something else, then you're no longer running the AP. You can dance around the fact, trying to meander through their decisions and stonewall them at every turn until they finally end up where you want them, but if they think it's an open ended game then this will only serve to frustrate them. It's better to talk with them upfront and make sure they're on board with the AP format.

 

[Obergnom]

Hmm, I do not like APs. Both as a player and as a DM. As a DM, they bore me. Why bother playing when you know the end allready? I feel like someone reading a book to my players. A book I know the end of allready. Not someone participating in the creation of a story together with my players.

As a player I dislike them even more. Why bother making up a character background when all that matters is, you have a balanced group (game wise) and you are not really allowed to do what you want to? I quited a Red Hand of Doom game because of that. Encounter Difficulty? No problem. Solid hook leaving us no choice but to follow the book? Check. A bunch of players feeling like their chars were only their to play through a prewritten adventure? check.

Concerning the difficulty. I think you get enough XP in all of them to be up to the challenges. At least thats my experience. But, only for gamer groups, who try to cover the basics while creating their parties. Who rather take a second cleric with them than a bard. (Bards are great, imo, but not in these adventures) Thats the kind of groups I usually game with. If the constellation is substandart, it gets corrected by evolution... characters keep dying until a party works.

Maybe your players are not into creating D&D SWAT Teams. Maybe they just want to play characters that interesset them, and if that results in a party of bards and wizards, the APs are not for you.
If they try but maybe are not able to create characters powerful enough, why not let your PCs start at 2nd level and with 32pts buy? That combination should be able to reduce that problem. Oh, and hand out +10% xp earned. Otherwise they will sooner or later be of "fitting" level again.

 

[takasi]

Why bother playing when you know the end allready? I feel like someone reading a book to my players. A book I know the end of allready. Not someone participating in they creation of a story together with my players.

Well it's all a matter of prep time. Eventually you will know the "end" right? At least, the options for the end, where the end will probably take place, etc.

When running an AP you are more referee than storymaker. For some this is appealing, because they don't have time to make a story, or perhaps a table can't find someone who is really good at making a story.

Why bother making up a character background when all that matters is, you have a balanced group (game wise) and you are not really allowed to do what you want to?

Well that's not all that matters. I've ran APs and I'm playing in an AP right now, and I'm having fun with my character because I built him around the plot. Sure I have a backstory, but it's not the backstory that's important anymore. It's not what I've done that defines my character, it's what I'm doing now. My choices may be a bit more narrow, but I am definately able to create a variety of character types to run through the AP.

If you're new to RPGs but have played computer games, games like Knights of the Old Republic and Neverwinter Nights 2 are great examples of how the same story can unfold around you while characters can still evolve and grow.

Some players, if not told ahead of time to do otherwise, will create an extensive background about their character without consulting the DM or even waiting a few sessions to see what the campaign is all about. With an AP, it's vital that the DM work with a player to create characters that will have fun interacting with the important NPCs in the campaign.

 

[Odhanan]

In hindsight, I think what had soured my group's experience with D&D was my running BIG adventures and Adventure Paths, with disasterous results. It seemed that all of the modules were written such that by the time you reach Chapter X you should be Y level; if you're not, everyone in the group will die.

(...)

Has anyone else run into trouble trying to run BIG adventures?

Retreater

I haven't run into any trouble running long adventures, the main reason being that I don't feel any written material should be played as is, ever. What I mean by this? Well, if the PCs reach Chapter X and are level Z instead of the intented Level Y, then I just slightly change the encounters, adding/substrating levels, taking this or that opponent off the encounter, to fit level Z.

A written material should never be considered to be played exactly as it stands, or you would be playing a computer game instead. That's a part of the reason why you have a flesh and blood DM at the table: to ensure that the contents of the adventure challenge the group of PCs in an entertaining, appropriate way, whatever that means for different gaming groups (and the mileage may greatly vary on this).

So no, I don't see a problem here.