Are the new trip rules broken?

[The Souljourner]

Tripping is not overpowered. Why? Because you could have just hit him in the first place.

Tripping requires two rolls to succeed, and a further 3rd roll to get any damage out of it. Three Rolls! If you fail the second you either have to drop your weapon (congratulations, you just disarmed yourself!) or you risk being tripped yourself, a roll which, I might add, your improved trip is no help with.

Also, as people have said, anything that is large and has 4 legs is going to laugh at your pathetic trip attempt unless you spend a *lot* of resources to max out your trip check, in which case, you have sacrificed enough that I don't think it's a big deal.

And last but not least, there are plenty of tactics that work just fine to get around repeated trip attempts. You can trip from prone - you get -4 to hit on your touch attack, but who cares? It's a touch attack. And there's no penalty to the trip check, and obviously you can't be tripped again while you're prone, so there's no drawback. Alternatively, you could just attack first and use expertise/fighting defensively to give yourself a hideous AC, and watch the guy miss. There is prone attack from Sword and Fist, which says if you hit someone while you're prone, you get to your feet as a free action, which means not only do you get a full attack, you don't provoke an attack of opportunity (on the reasoning that almost no free actions provoke attacks of opportunity). Another option is to crawl 5 feet, take the attack of opportunity, and then stand up.

Only unintelligent foes are going to be so stupid as to lie there continuing to take attacks of opportunity as they stand up and get tripped every round (even presuming your tripper miraculously never fails a roll).

-The Souljourner

 

[Janos Audron]

Souljourner:

Druid + Dire Wolf = Reach + Free Action Trip + no AoO + Damage + Large + Strength = No Fun when running Rappahn Athuk and your CR 11 bad guy can't even approach the Lvl 8 PC's because of a stupid wolf.

The ing *animal companion* wins the fights, not the fighters or the mages or the druid, but the *wolf*!

What, no, I'm not frustrated at all...

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

According to the SRD, the dire wolf only has a five foot reach. The Dire Wolf also has a substandard AC and merely decent hit points. Any bad guy that won't take the wolf out in one or two rounds of melee combat shouldn't be in melee combat in the first place. (Try the wolf against an 11th level orc fighter/barbarian (22 base strength, 24 with levels, 26 with gauntlets, 30 while raging; 32 while raging and enlarged--power attack for 10 points or so for 3d6+37 points of damage per hit (more if he has a magic weapon); come to think of it, the wolf doesn't have really good odds of tripping the barbarian either). Tripping is a good bonus for the wolf but won't dominate combat without additional spells (animal growth, etc). And if the party uses additional spells, you can too. Ray of Enfeeblement, Calm Animals, Dispel Magic, etc will reduce the creature's effectiveness.

In my experience, 3.5 trip can be a very powerful tactic and is no longer (as in 3.0) only useful against levelled non-barbarian humanoids. (A fighter/wizard/Eldritch Knight with Improved Trip polymorphed into a Troll or Annis Hag and wielding a guisarm has pretty good odds even against large or four-legged creatures (though merely even odds of successfully tripping a typical large AND four-legged creature that hasn't been hit with a Ray of Enfeeblement). It would still be good if you removed the AoO for standing up but going back to 3.0 Improved Trip would make it a marginal feat at best. The +4 to the opposed trip roll is what makes the tactic fit for prime time.

Souljourner:
Druid + Dire Wolf = Reach + Free Action Trip + no AoO + Damage + Large + Strength = No Fun when running Rappahn Athuk and your CR 11 bad guy can't even approach the Lvl 8 PC's because of a stupid wolf.

The ing *animal companion* wins the fights, not the fighters or the mages or the druid, but the *wolf*!

What, no, I'm not frustrated at all...

 

[Borc]

Trip + AoO

I am currently playing a fighter type that uses trip to its extreme, and while i used the argument of having to use 3 rolls to get the person tripped and give damage it is quite over powered because of all the other AoO it gives to other players in my party, it is an obscene amount of damage when you look at it from the perspective of how much damage that one ability causes. and the continual tripping is definately a little broken as the character cannot get up if you always succeed on the trip attempt, because honestly who cares if you actually deal damage on the AoO whats important is that you keep the person on the ground. Because that is more important in the min/max game then it is in the metagame.

that being said, my playing group got together and talked about the issue and tried to find out a fair way to resolve the revolving trip issue in a fair manner to all. What we came up with was that AoO's can only be dealt with by regular melee attacks by the exact text of the description. We made it so that you cannot use any special attack during an AoO, that means no trip, grapple, and cleave. Also monsters cannot use their "special" abilities during an AoO as well, so they cannot swallow whole on an AoO. we have played that way for the past two sessions and while i really wish that i could have kept it as a revolving trip i see this as being more balanced and fair in the end, that being for both pcs and npcs.

Borc
May all those who seek me find my blade before my stomach!

 

[Curugul]

Do free actions provoke

Attacks of opportunity?

Ever? Only in certain cases?

I ask because according to the ELH, you can stand up from prone as a free action with a DC 35 Tumble check, which isn't actually that horrible considering how good it would be with the new trip rules. Would this provoke the AoO?


Curugul

 

[Hypersmurf]

Do free actions provoke Attacks of opportunity?

Ever? Only in certain cases?

"Rarely".

For an example, see using the Rapid Reload feat with a light crossbow. Free Action that provokes an AoO.

So your DM needs to decide when he converts OA or ELH to 3.5 if he's going to include "and does not provoke an AoO" in the free-action-stand Tumble check.

-Hyp.

 

[Stalker0]

I think souljourner hit the nail on the head pretty well, tripping is a gamble, and frankly if you succeed on a gamble you should get a big payoff, else it ain't worth it.

And even if that dire wolf can trip a 10th level fighter or something, well the fighter will just kill him from prone, -4 ain't nothing off his attack against a wolf's ac.

 

[Cedric]

I'm doing an experiment with my current monk character (with my GM's permission). Basically, I have turned him into a tripping/grappling machine.

+5 str bonus, +4 for being large (Jotunbrud feat - +8 while enlarged), +4 for improved trip means I have a pretty good trip check. Wearing Steadfast Boots means I can't get tripped in return.

Basically I run up to someone and trip them (with improved trip), then take my free attack for successfully tripping them.

When they try to stand up I get an AoO, I always do more than 10 points of damage if I hit...so now my Knock-Down feat puts them back on the ground (...and stay down!).

Is it gross and disgusting? Yes..but broken? *shrugs* It's easy to get around by choosing different things for us to fight, then there are entire aspects of my character which are useless to me and the party...

So no, so far it doesn't seem to be broken...I'll keep you posted though.

Cedric

 

[Stormrunner]

Well, based on my experiences with getting my heinie kicked by the bullies at school, yes, once you're on the ground it is EXTREMELY hard to just stand up again if they are standing over you and hitting/kicking you. There's a good reason why Pentjak Silat and other "street-fighting" martial arts teach ground-fighting maneuvers.
There's basically three ways you can stand up:
1) Use your enemy's arm as a ladder. This is what the Prone Fighting feat in S&F tries to emulate, though realistically it should trigger when the foe attacks, not when you do. When they extend their arm to hit you, you grab their wrist and pull. Most humans will instinctively pull back, trying to yank their hand free, and you ride that pull up to a standing position. Doesn't require much strength, but you need a really good reaction time to succeed at the wrist grab.
2) Kip up. It does work in real life, but you need to be in really good physical shape - I'd say min Str 13, Dex 15. Technically a highly-trained opponent can whack you in mid-kip and knock you down again, but the move is so fast and startling that most people can't react in time to stop it.
3) Roll away (Tumble movement) to a non-threatened space, then stand. Generally the best option for a low-skilled combatant in real life, but a quick-reacting opponent can chase after you and continue to keep you down. Still, in game terms they'll be getting only one attack against you per round (>5' move = no full attack), which improves your survival chances immensely.

In case you can't tell, I totally disagree with the "I haven't stood up yet, so you can't trip me" argument. Standing up is not an instantaneous teleport to a standing position - at some point you do have to actually go through the process of getting your feet under you and straightening up. By the IHSUY argument, you can't disrupt a caster's spell either, or sunder a potion as someone tries to drink it - it's not only unrealistic, it opens up too many cans of worms rules-wise.

 

[KarinsDad]

Well, I do not play 3.5 rules, but from my experience playing the Temple of Elemental Evil computer game, I think the new trip is Broke with a capital B.

I have had situations in the computer game where an opponent continues to trip one of my PCs and it is devastating. If the tripper is a Rogue with sneak attack and there is another opponent or a summoned monster behind your PC, he is effectively dead in a few rounds.

Granted, in the computer game, your PCs try to stand on their own automatically which in the paper and pencil game, you would not have to do. But, even so, being prone puts you at -4 to hit and your opponent at +4 to hit, so that is still devastating, just not as devastating as trying to get back up.