Are the new trip rules broken?

[Storm Raven]

If all of this is true, tripping (not to mention improved trip) is the most broken maneuver out there. It certainly resembles real life more, but at the cost of extreme game imbalance.

I ran a session this past Saturday in which the PCs opposition was a large group of opponents (primarily bullywugs and chaond) armed with saparas and khopeshs, using trip attacks as one of their primary combat maneuvers. When it worked, it was effective, when it didn't, it just disarmed them.

The PCs won the fight. A tough fight, but not overly so. Even with the opposition using gang-up tactics to try to sawrm donwed PCs.

 

[The Souljourner]

+5 str bonus, +4 for being large (Jotunbrud feat - +8 while enlarged), +4 for improved trip means I have a pretty good trip check. Wearing Steadfast Boots means I can't get tripped in return.

When they try to stand up I get an AoO, I always do more than 10 points of damage if I hit...so now my Knock-Down feat puts them back on the ground (...and stay down!).

You've spent 3 feats (two of which are non-core and questionable at best) and had a mage cast a very short duration spell on you which reduces your AC by 2 and you have a non-core magic item helping you out. That's a lot to invest in being able to trip someone.

Knockdown is a pretty ridiculous feat, and Jotunbrund should probably be replaced entirely by improved trip in 3.5.

*shrug* Doesn't seem too ridiculous, however. Barring those two feats, you have +9 (+13 when enlarged). Many many monsters have at least that much if not more, and they just get more common the higher level you are. As enemies get larger, their strength goes up and they get +4 for each size category. Sure, try tripping that hill giant.

The problem with tripping is that your opponents' trip check goes up pretty quickly with level, and yours doesn't go up at all (or very little, if you're increasing strength).

-The Souljourner

 

[jgsugden]

*IF* you find tripping to be too strong, I offer the following house rules for your consideration. They've worked well so far in my game.

1.) You may oppose a trip attempt with a strength check, reflex save, balance check or escape artist check. My initial impulse when considering this was that it made tripping useless as it seemed a reflex save would be too easy to make. When I tested it out, it was actually pretty balanced.

2.) Allow people to stand as a free action with a tumble check of 25. It isn't really that hard to 'flip up'. The DC 35 tumble check from OA is ridiculous.

3.) Only allow the +4 bonus from improved trip when your target is larger than you.

 

[wolfen]

Given all this feedback, it doesn't appear Improve Trip is broken. Especially when you consider NPC's can have it, too!

Secondarily, even if your DM doesn't make your baddies get super big and strong as you gain levels -- he could just make more bad guys. Getting surrounded by 3 or 4 bad guys will have you wanting to do some damage quick. The tripping won't seem so impressive when you're flanked and getting hammered on.

Smart DM time: If there's a battle going on and one of your opponents has your comrade flat on his back, who you gonna attack first? I mean, if it were me, I'd pretty much ignore the rest of the combatants if they were all standing. I'd save my friend who's on the ground. Logically, then, Mr. Super Tripper should be drawing more attention to himself.


wolfen

 

[Hypersmurf]

As enemies get larger, their strength goes up and they get +4 for each size category. Sure, try tripping that hill giant.

Well, Hill Giants are CR 7. The average 7th level Trip-Monkey Fighter will have 20-21 Strength; Fighter/Barbarian will have 24-25 while Raging.

15-16 base.
+1 at 4th level.
+2 Gauntlets.
+2 Enlarge Person.

Plus a possible +2 racial bonus if you're a half-orc, and +4 from Rage.

But let's say 21. With Enlarge Person, you and the Giant are both Large, and he has 25 Strength - a +2 advantage on the Trip check - but you have the feat, for +4.

So you actually still come out ahead even as a straight-class Human Ftr-7 with Improved Trip and Enlarge Person, not using any weird third-party feats.

Granted, it's nowhere near the advantage you have over Bob the Gnoll at lower levels, so there's more risk involved, but you're still competitive.

-Hyp.

 

[The Souljourner]

*IF* you find tripping to be too strong, I offer the following house rules for your consideration. They've worked well so far in my game.

1.) You may oppose a trip attempt with a strength check, reflex save, balance check or escape artist check. My initial impulse when considering this was that it made tripping useless as it seemed a reflex save would be too easy to make. When I tested it out, it was actually pretty balanced.

A balance check!? Holy crap. No one with balance as a class skill would *ever* get tripped. Consider a 10th level rogue with 20 dex (16 to start, +2 from levels, +2 from an item). That's a +18 trip check right there.

Now compare that to the animal growthed, improved trip dire ape druid. That super maxed out tripper only has +22. Sure, it's more, but that's with a 5th level 1min/level spell and wasting a feat. Without the feat and the spell, he's *losing* by 4.

Balance just got crazy good (not that I think that's a bad thing in general... I think a lot of the rogue feats should be used more often.)

-The Souljourner

 

[jgsugden]

A balance check!? Holy crap. No one with balance as a class skill would *ever* get tripped. Consider a 10th level rogue with 20 dex (16 to start, +2 from levels, +2 from an item). That's a +18 trip check right there.

Now compare that to the animal growthed, improved trip dire ape druid. That super maxed out tripper only has +22. Sure, it's more, but that's with a 5th level 1min/level spell and wasting a feat. Without the feat and the spell, he's *losing* by 4.

Balance just got crazy good (not that I think that's a bad thing in general... I think a lot of the rogue feats should be used more often.)

-The Souljourner

As a reminder: This is a suggested house rule. If you don't like it, you can print it out, take it in the bathroom and use it for whatever purpose you see fit.

Regarding characters with a maxed out balance check: The intent was that someone who has spent years working on their balance should be darn near impossible to trip. Watch Jamal Lewis of the Baltimore Ravens. People try to truip him all the time. The only way to take him down is to tackle (grapple) him down. Besides: I have seen a few hundred characters in 3.0 and 3.5. I've rarely seen a midlevel character with a maxed out balance skill. People usually grab a few ranks and then ignore the skill.