Are the Scarlet bro's and Iuz holding GREYHAWK back?

[Greg V]

I just remembered, that the new Drow of the Underdark book does do some development with Greyhawk, though the Underdark of the Flanaess is so limited in its development (pretty much the Vault of the Drow and surrounding environs), that it's pretty much a niche development and doesn't do much for the game world as a whole beyond what's up in Erelhei-Cinlu.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I always thought of Greyhawk as being a snapshot in time of a setting, which is then developed at the gaming table by individual DMs. One of the things that turned me off of settings like FR was that they became ever-changing at the hands of someone other than individual DMs. Personally, I'd like to see Greyhawk remain as that snapshot, with supporting material simply detailing the setting at that moment in time. Yes, eventually you'd run out of stuff to detail, or end up detailing down to a ridiculous degree, if WotC felt the need to release a constant stream of GH material. Maybe at that point they could release "alternate universe" versions of GH, detailing how it would be if, say, Iuz was gone, or the timeline was advanced (maybe like the Greyhawk 2000 articles in Dragon and Dungeon years back), or there was an alien invasion, or whatever.

 

[Faraer]

Anyways, I think it's time for a new FtA-type product..one that does away with Iuz and the Scarlet Brotherhood.

Can you explain why you want this done 'officially', rather than doing it in your campaign? Especially since no one else's set of changes will match what you want.

 

[thedungeondelver]

I've been a Gh fan for years and years, but have found it getting pretty dry after many campaigns. It's so static. So grey. So "balanced" and neutral.

The problem is you, not GREYHAWK. Or more specifically, the problem is because you're not doing anything with it. GREYHAWK is some assembly required. Batteries not included. Wind before using. If you want Iuz to march on the Wolf Nomads to squash them once and for all, then do it. If you want the Scarlet Brotherhood to sacrifice a small army of magic-users in an attempt to kidnap and replace Mordenkainen with a Doppleganger, make it so!

You get - or rather, got, I don't know what the admonition for GREYHAWK is these days - a world described as being on the precipice. Giants are banding together and attacking Geoff. Rumors abound of a strange and unknowable evil lich passed beyond even the powers of lichdom in the forgotten Sunndi. Cultists are on the move, searching for some blasphemous temple in the Lortmils. It's up to you to make that a cohesive, moving, generating plot.

For example, in my WORLD OF GREYHAWK campaign, Acererak is (and the players do not know this yet) the primal evil force in the world. Taking a nod from RETURN TO THE TOMB OF HORRORS, Acererak has wandered the negative energy planes in spirit form and has encountered Tharizdun, who is locked out of the Prime Material Plane. Acererak is trying to merge with Tharizdun and basically destroy the world. In the meantime, other Elder Elemental Gods are aware of the shenanegans and trying to build a power base to either beat the Acererak/Tharizdun tag-team to the punch. In the case of the EEG worshipped by the Drow, they're doing it by knocking the pegs out from under their chief rivals, the worhsippers of Lolth by drawing attention to the Drow and leading a party of hopefully near-godlike adventuerers to destroy her so that they can increase their power-base, their worship-base and then accomplish the unthinkable themselves. The followers of the EEG of the TEMPLE OF ELEMENTAL EVIL have their own agenda.

All of these events are going to tie together and change the face of GREYHAWK by the time I'm done with the campaign. How it changes, and whether it's for better or worse, is up to the players' actions. But one thing's for sure, what is in the boxed set and folio I own will be wholly irrelevant to the way the world "is" when the party is done.

You can't just take campaign settings and modules at face value. Especially GREYHAWK. They're not like the FORGOTTEN REALMS and DRAGONLANCE settings. There aren't active events going on that are wholly out of your control as the Dungeon Master that are there only for you to react to. You breathe the life into the campaign world. You make it go.

So...

Go make it go!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

I agree with what most people are saying herein.

I always preferred Greyhawk to the Realms simply because the villains were in really strong positions of power and that meant there was a greater need for heroes (ie. the PC's).

Whereas it didn't matter what your PCs did in the Realms because Elminster and his cohorts were always on hand.

From the Ashes (and basically everything Carl Sargent did to Greyhawk) was fantastic in my opinion.

You could argue that the three strongest power centres in the Flanaess were the Empire of Iuz, the Scarlet Brotherhood and Aerdy (albeit temporarily fractured).

I suppose the Realms has its share of cool villains: Zhentarim, Red Wizards and Cult of the Dragon, but none of those has a hope of conquering Faerun.

 

[hong]

The problem is you, not GREYHAWK. Or more specifically, the problem is because you're not doing anything with it. GREYHAWK is some assembly required.

It's a mindshare thing.

 

[CruelSummerLord]

I truly despise FtA because it violated one of the most basic tenets of Greyhawk-that it was the DM and his or her players, and not official canon and metaplots over which the DM has no control that dictated how the setting would go.

Countries were trampled over without the PCs getting a chance to either save them, or a chance to carve out a piece of the action for themselves if they were evil or amoral. Almost every country was impoverished, and things haven't gotten much better. The Scarlet Brotherhood, at least according to some versions, only allows Suel humans to move freely about, keeping everyone else penned up in chains until it's time for them to breed.

How can you have an adventure in SB territory if the PCs can't even move about? Even the Vault of the Drow allowed human and dwarven characters to wander about.

Ever since then, many GH fans feel a need to adhere to canon when they design their adventures and write their sourcebooks, which can be as much of a hindrance as a help to creativity. If the setting does something you hate, you still have to incorporate it anyway.

And remember, IIRC it was Jeff Grubb who came up with the idea of "blowing up" Greyhawk.

This is the same man responsible for tinker gnomes.

Remember that.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Frankly, I like that there are such uber-evils in the setting, with no clear over-arching forces of good arrayed against them. It's much better than, say, FR, where the Chosen of Mystra et al seem overshadow the PCs with their very presence, and any evil organizations seem puny by comparison.

I like how there aren't Chosen of Mystra uber-good heroes too, but it seems that Iuz can't be stopped, since he's a demi-god. (Maybe he can, but is it reasonable that the PCs would know this?)

In the Eberron setting, active villains are stoppable ... although like in Greyhawk the PCs have to do it since Eberron doesn't have any Chosen of Mystra uber-good heroes either.

 

[Emirikol]

When FtA came out, I got the impression that people were mad because things changed in the game. Somehow, DM's were offended that actual change occurred.

I don't get why people want another LGG or FRCS. "Hey look, they didn't do anything but release another product that repeats all the prior stuff you had. Whoopee."

If you're going to change a campaign, change it. Have balls.

Greyhawk will continue to be dead and a used-up world until it changes. Iuz and SB are the biggest things holding it back. They are stagnant, used-up plotlines that are no longer cool.

jh

 

[Emirikol]

The problem is you, not GREYHAWK. Or more specifically, the problem is because you're not doing anything with it. GREYHAWK is some assembly required. Batteries not included. Wind before using. If you want Iuz to march on the Wolf Nomads to squash them once and for all, then do it. If you want the Scarlet Brotherhood to sacrifice a small army of magic-users in an attempt to kidnap and replace Mordenkainen with a Doppleganger, make it so!

The reason I purchase preprinted campaigns is so I don't have to the work. They need to be vibrant and continuing with new stuff..not rehashes of the old stuff but because of a campaign change.

A rather bizarre but intriguing situation would be if they produced a "dead campaign" and a vibrant (version B) campaign. Alternate worlds if you will. Then DM's who have spent the last 37 years playing in a world they've made their own, won't feel like a company is shoving changes down their throats (like removing assassins and monks..for instance........ ...... ....... ......)

It's been clear from the start that nobody (not even Erik Mona) have had the heart to do massive changes to greyhawk..we're stuck defining meaningless dead-ends of the campaign...well, they've been mostly defined. No wonder GH can't get support anymore.

On the otherhand, FR was able to "kill off a god" that mattered and made some serious changes to the campaign over the years.

Although, the canon issue was cool when it first started, because we never had a comprehensive product, it's now become a burden too. We've got to quote it like some kind of bible..the canon documents were produced so we could use them..to breathe life..to record changes..to make changes.

What's this new product coming up?

jh