Are the Scarlet bro's and Iuz holding GREYHAWK back?

[thedungeondelver]

The reason I purchase preprinted campaigns is so I don't have to the work. They need to be vibrant and continuing with new stuff..not rehashes of the old stuff but because of a campaign change.

A rather bizarre but intriguing situation would be if they produced a "dead campaign" and a vibrant (version B) campaign. Alternate worlds if you will. Then DM's who have spent the last 37 years playing in a world they've made their own, won't feel like a company is shoving changes down their throats (like removing assassins and monks..for instance........ ...... ....... ......)

It's been clear from the start that nobody (not even Erik Mona) have had the heart to do massive changes to greyhawk..we're stuck defining meaningless dead-ends of the campaign...well, they've been mostly defined. No wonder GH can't get support anymore.

On the otherhand, FR was able to "kill off a god" that mattered and made some serious changes to the campaign over the years.

Although, the canon issue was cool when it first started, because we never had a comprehensive product, it's now become a burden too. We've got to quote it like some kind of bible..the canon documents were produced so we could use them..to breathe life..to record changes..to make changes.

What's this new product coming up?

jh

See, here's where you and I run in to a fundamental difference. You say:

The Scarlet Brotherhood has come and gone too. They were cool way back when.

Whose "way back when"? Back when you got in to GREYHAWK or when I got in to GREYHAWK? What about someone who's just getting in to it? It just might be a fine place for them to start - but oh no, we've moved on! This newcomer missed the boat! Too bad! The storyline has advanced! See that's not a good campaign world to me.

Also:

On the otherhand, FR was able to "kill off a god" that mattered and made some serious changes to the campaign over the years.

See, there has to be a baseline, though. Putting the DM in the position of having to reconcile stuff that's entirely out of his control is, IMO, not really fair.

 

[billd91]

What I want for Greyhawk is a 5-year compilation of all of the general plotlines from Living Greyhawk so I can understand what's going on in the campaign should I decide to get back into LG. I'd also like it as a potential timeline of development that I can use in my own campaign.

In that vein, I think a product of alternative timelines for the development of Greyhawk could be cool. Get a bunch of GH designers together and have them each hash out what they always wanted to do with Greyhawk. I think that would fit in very well with the sort of campaign GH is: one that is for the individual DM to take ownership of.

 

[EvilPheemy]

It's a fine line to walk, for a published campaign world. In order to be a "living" line (that is, a line of books and supplements that are regularly published), the setting needs to evolve, or else those who purchased it in the beginning will lose interest in purchasing what comes out later. However, if the setting evolves too much, no one can jump on board after a given point.

I'd love to see Greyhawk evolve, to see Oerth treated in the same manner of support that the FR has. But, that isn't happening in the forseeable future. Greyhawk, in some respects, has too much "baggage". It's a campaign over 30 years old and spread over tens of thousands of games. Short of "starting over" (which will alienate the faithful) there's not much that can be done which would appeal to a gamer who is just getting started in the game.

Just think, Vecna was made a Deity almost 7 years ago now. From the Ashes is 15 years old now. Many teenage gamers were born *after* that supplement was published.

I don't know how all of this works with Living Greyhawk, which is the only avenue where "new" Greyhawk product is coming from.

 

[Emirikol]

See, here's where you and I run in to a fundamental difference. You say:
Whose "way back when"? Back when you got in to GREYHAWK or when I got in to GREYHAWK? What about someone who's just getting in to it? It just might be a fine place for them to start - but oh no, we've moved on! This newcomer missed the boat! Too bad! The storyline has advanced! See that's not a good campaign world to me.

I don't actually believe there is any kind of significant number of people 'just getting into Greyhawk,' and at the current rate we can expect complete and totall execution of the product (sans names of spells and deities that no kid understands). BTW, the LGG is OOP. My way back when was in the early 80's of course. If you love this world as much as I do, you may be reaching that point too. When is your House Rulebook for Greyhawk more "foreground" than the actual campaign setting?

There are cooler things than SB. I think they were cool when they were secret and evil. Now they are like the Rome of southern Oerik (as Iuz is to the north). It's time for them to go.

Man, this campaign needs new life and new non-LG members and rehashing old stuff isn't going to sell products..and that's what happened when the LGG came out..and the D&D gaz... They were never "best sellers."

I can see why WotC simply turns to a new world like Eberron. There's no entrenched unmovables out there yet Perhaps it's because everybody's afraid of screw-ups like Castle Greyhawk, or Carl naming Orc tribes after human, demihuman and goblinoid races..or someone thinking that rivers are flowing backwards. Lord knows, you can't have a product with errors

I totally get someone who has put time into "their" campaign and thinking that they own this world and nobody else can touch it, but let's be realistic about Greyhawk's future. Some people would rather continue to see it dead than change to attract new members and sell products to the older ones.

jh
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[Klaus]

Iuz and the Scarlet Brotherhood haven't done much? It's up to the DM to make 'em. IMHO, a setting should provide a "snapshot" or "zero hour" of the setting, and future supplements should refrain from officially advancing the timeline. For instance, look at Eberron. When it was released in 2004, it was the year 998. We're now in 2007 and the books being released are still set in 998.

You can have years of Greyhawk books simply by describing the Flanaess (which would require quite a few books), the extremes (Bright Desert, Crystalmist Mountains, etc), the religions, the Islands, Hepmonaland, Amedio Jungle, before proceeding to expanding the map (something that should've happened a long while ago). And then you'll have a book on the City of Greyhawk, an Expedition to Castle Greyhawk, a Races of Oerth book, a Dragons of Oerth, a Magic of Oerth... Really, if you release six Greyhawk books per year, you have enough material for the first three years, easily. An official "advancing" timeline is hardly necessary.

 

[Prince of Happiness]

Yeeeeaaah, Iuz and the Scarlet Brotherhood initiated the Greyhawk Wars, no, they haven't done much at all...

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Iuz and the Scarlet Brotherhood haven't done much? It's up to the DM to make 'em. IMHO, a setting should provide a "snapshot" or "zero hour" of the setting, and future supplements should refrain from officially advancing the timeline. For instance, look at Eberron. When it was released in 2004, it was the year 998. We're now in 2007 and the books being released are still set in 998.

You can have years of Greyhawk books simply by describing the Flanaess (which would require quite a few books), the extremes (Bright Desert, Crystalmist Mountains, etc), the religions, the Islands, Hepmonaland, Amedio Jungle, before proceeding to expanding the map (something that should've happened a long while ago). And then you'll have a book on the City of Greyhawk, an Expedition to Castle Greyhawk, a Races of Oerth book, a Dragons of Oerth, a Magic of Oerth... Really, if you release six Greyhawk books per year, you have enough material for the first three years, easily. An official "advancing" timeline is hardly necessary.

Yeah, that's exactly my feeling on it, but apparently there are lots of people who want a setting with an advancing storyline. Trouble is, what works for a fiction series doesn't necessarily work for a RPG world. Or at least it doesn't work as well. Complaints about the world being static or frozen miss the point - a game world changes because the individual DM and his gaming group cause it to change. But I guess that line of reasoning is unwanted.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

As something to support the point of the OP, I think publishing a GH adventure path that leads to the death/downfall of Iuz and/or the SB might be a cool product. I just am not sure if it should advance the official timeline.

 

[Emirikol]

Yeeeeaaah, Iuz and the Scarlet Brotherhood initiated the Greyhawk Wars, no, they haven't done much at all...

And their time has come and gone Iuz, gone forever..not missing...not on vacation...not off conquering Alfheim...just gone. Dead and no chance of return (except for a future scenario TBD Scarlet Brotherhood folds...maybe the retreat all the way back to the SoDust leaving behind lots of ruins and secrets..and a power vacuum.

One more thing that bugs me, since we're here: Eastfair and orcs. The "G" nature of the game nowadays is not effective at explaining what needs to be said about that situation.

jh

 

[painandgreed]

Greyhawk will continue to be dead and a used-up world until it changes. Iuz and SB are the biggest things holding it back. They are stagnant, used-up plotlines that are no longer cool.

I don't see it. Getting rid of them serves no purpose unless the actual reason is to bring in something else you like better, and that would be just a matter of aesthetics. If anything is holding back the setting, it would be any and all good and neutral kingdoms, not the bad ones. If you really wanted to stir things up, dispose a a few good kings and have them replaced with bad kings. Have some powerful characters take control of the neutral kingdoms and take their armies on the march. Create a target rich enviroment for your PCs and lots of excuses to adventure and wrongs they can right. Getting rid of the bad guys just means you replace them with bad guys and nothing has changed, or you replace them with good guys and you end up like the Impotent Realms* with no reason to ever adventure.

*Not a slight on the campaign setting as a whole but rather how they neutered the Zents and Thay in 2E and provided way too many good uber NPCs.