Are the Scarlet bro's and Iuz holding GREYHAWK back?

[Celebrim]

Nothing is worse than a campaign world with an ongoing cannonical story line.

The only good FR campaigns that I've seen are the ones that assume that the PC's are free to derail any of the cannonical events, and that once that happens then the campaign world will necessarily diverge from someone elses.

I despise the notion that one DM's preferences should overrule everyone else's, even if they DM is the original creator. I despise the notion that DM's need to be spoonfed a script. I despise the notion of a railroad campaign world where you have to fear whether or not you are 'doing it right' and the PC's know that they'll never be as important to the campaign world as some other campaign's PC's.

No thanks.

So, no. I agree with thedungeondelver. What you describe as a bug is actually a feature. If I'm going to buy into published campaign setting, I'd like to buy into a static setting eternally set in a particular small time frame. I can provide my own motion. The reason that a published campaign setting 'evolves' is not for my benefit, but just to sell more product.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Unfortunately GH isn't a supported world by WotC. It is more kept alive by the fans. Someone made mention that having Iuz just go away is a good idea and there could be several causes to this. A group of high level NPC's got Mordenkainan's research on Iuz's true name and have imprisioned him for a time. The war with Vecna having taken it's toll forced him to retreat to the nether reaches for a time and his followers have to make their own way for a time. Iuz decides that he only wants the strong to survive and disappears so as to creat strife and war on the flaness in which he may return on a whim or not.

The scarlett brotherhood isn't as bad as you might think. They hold on to power with the threat that if invaded they will do everything in their power to assassinate any noble who supports this. It doesn't mean that they aren't unassialable. In a kingdom level campaign I played in in the 80's we did something like that and one of the PC's had a god's wish to be able to go back in time and change that action rather than have the chaos that would have ensued.

Make your campaign grow, just remember that greyhawk is only one continent that is developed and that you can expound much more with just the limited framework that greyhawk gives.

 

[Emirikol]

Nothing is worse than a campaign world with an ongoing cannonical story line.

Pathfinder and the Dungeon adventure path's are exactly that. They seem sort of successful.

Not that I'm disagreeing. I'm just saying that Iuz and SB are getting old.

jh

 

[Celebrim]

Pathfinder and the Dungeon adventure path's are exactly that. They seem sort of successful.

No. The two things may seem similar, but the feature that distinguishes the two is so important that the two things might as well be considered opposites.

In an adventure path, the events are all about the PC's. Everything that happens will be intimately connected to the PC's, and the PC's will ultimately define the history of the portion of the world to which the adventure path is attached. This is profoundly different from supplying a history which is separate from the actions of the PC's.

I'm just saying that Iuz and SB are getting old.

Then kill them off. Come up with an adventure path in which the PC's are instrumental in the triumph over these villains (Iuz is comparable to Kyuss in power), or else if you've a better idea for a villain then write them off in some fashion and set up the peices how you prefer them.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

Then kill them off. Come up with an adventure path in which the PC's are instrumental in the triumph over these villains (Iuz is comparable to Kyuss in power), or else if you've a better idea for a villain then write them off in some fashion and set up the peices how you prefer them.

I think what he's saying is that for GH to be a commercially viable setting again the SB and Iuz have to get the axe. I don't think he's saying that he doesn't have the "courage" (for lack of a better word) to change the setting in his own personal campaigns.

FWIW, I love the SB and iuz. They are some of my favorite aspects of the setting and are part of the quintessential GH experience. YMMV, but I feel the setting would be lessened without them.

 

[Squire James]

Someone's mistaking material in a book for stuff that a DM can't change at his whim. Perhaps in your world, Iuz doesn't actually exist! Perhaps the Boneheart really run the empire, and have set up some puppet cambion in Doraaka that pretends to be him. Some other CE god of lies and deception are really fuelling the empire's clerics. Perhaps the Scarlet Brotherhood is an ambitious, but ultimately weak, country that barks a lot louder than it bites.

My world? Leave it alone. Iuz found out he needs to absorb a lot of power and find a real portfolio to become a more powerful god, so he's seeking out a spot in Jotunheim where a forgotten god named Loki is chained up under a volcano...

 

[Alzrius]

I think what he's saying is that for GH to be a commercially viable setting again the SB and Iuz have to get the axe.

And in that regard, I disagree completely. Iuz and the Scarlet Brotherhood don't have any intrinsic metaplots - both want to "conquer the world" and that's about it; how is that railroading the DM?

The only argument for that that I can see is that it forces the DM to use them as villains, instead of making up their own, but even that's fairly ridiculous. Any DM who wanted a setting without even such "broad strokes" pre-made villains should just build their own world from the ground up.

 

[Nyeshet]

Even better, it's easy to reverse when needed -- and the power play when he DOES return will be as interesting as his absence.

Somehow I'm suddenly reminded of the scenes towards the end of the Belgariad series (and better explained after the fact around the middle of the Malorean series), when Torak awakened after a few thousand years of sleep and the various high priests suddenly had a bit more power when reminding the Emperor of Malorea, the Warlord of Cthul Murgo, and various minor kings that Torak was both God and King over all of them. (At least until his death a few months later.) Suddenly the long time enemies (Malorea and Murgos) were forced to work together towards the goals as stated by Torak's high priests.

It was worse after Torak died, for even while enemies prior, neither side had ever gone quite too far - just in case Torak returned. With his death - and the absolute surety that he would never return - an all out war of annihilation started up (the Malloreans more or less certain to win, as the last major battles of the war had occurred in / near Cthul Murgos, weakening them notably in manpower, resources, etc).


I can just see the confusion occurring after Iuz vanishes leading to a new power arrangement - perhaps one country becoming dominant in the region. Yet it would not go too far in its domination and treatment of the others - at least not so far as to risk the wrath of Iuz should he suddenly return. And if he should return - even more upset to the social order, for a time. And a sudden death of Iuz - if within a generation or three of his return (esp if within one generation), and suddenly there is a violent backlash as the pendulum swings back towards the direction of the social order that was (in Iuz's absence) - but more severe yet as now there is no threat of Iuz returning to reverse or punish those now again in charge.

All in all, the idea has potential.

However, it doesn't have to be Iuz. I'm not overly familiar (beyond the basics) with GH, but are there not any other deities that have vanished, been sealed, etc over the last few centuries? What if one of them suddenly returned? What about those zones of destruction that I seem to call existing in GH's far north and (south? west?)? Perhaps some ancient deity or horror was sealed (purposefully or accidentally during the destruction) in the far past and suddenly is now free. Mayhap it is potent enough that many traditional enemies must - at least briefly - unite in purpose if they are to have any chance of succeeding in dealing with this threat.

What about the means of devastation that occurred in the distant past? Perhaps some half-crazed fanatic has found a means of re-creating this terror. An adventure could be centered around trying to find out about a cult or other shadowy organization - eventually leading to a confrontation in one of those destroyed regions - only to just fail. But the means of destruction is not as perfected as the fanatic supposed, and only partial destruction occurs - perhaps scattered over the lands of GH, perhaps only half-strength (such that it occurs everywhere, but enough survive to carry on in nearly all places - say only a quarter to a third of the population of GH slain instead of 90 - 100%).

The recovery would be an adventure in its own right. With most governments either collapsed or teetering on the edge of collapse, mercenary groups and adventurers would be the deciding factor perhaps in which lands survived and which fell into anarchy. The party could have a major impact on the history of GH just in which governments (if any) they support. Other groups might choose to start up their own (new) governments - and due to the collapse of so many prior governments they just may succeed.

GH has potential. It just needs a nice shake up to remove a lot of the old dross and allow a nice injection of new potential and interesting features.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

And in that regard, I disagree completely. Iuz and the Scarlet Brotherhood don't have any intrinsic metaplots - both want to "conquer the world" and that's about it; how is that railroading the DM?

I certainly don't see how that is so! I think BBEGs are a great thing to have in the setting.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

The solution to the Iuzian Problem is elegant in its simplicity:

Iuz needs to go away.

Not die. Not ascend. Not be defeated. He simply needs to disappear, and nobody, not even the highest of his inner circle knows why. The effect is immediate - a fire gets lit under asses all across the north. His lands are no longer unassailable now that they lack the penultimate trump card of being ruled by a demigod. The new de facto rulers, recognizing that it's only a matter of time before someone catches wise to the vacant throne, step up a campaign of renewed aggression against their neighbors to keep anyone from noticing and trying to invade in the Old One's absence. Homeostasis is broken, new questions and possibilities arise.

I know this ruffles some fans a bit by mentioning Living Greyhawk. But it isn't too much of a spoiler to say that much of this has been going on there. It is the year 597, so things haven't been static. Iuz had made advances around his borders and losses in places. Then the Codex of Infinite Planes fell into his hands.

With the Codex in possession, Iuz then departed Oerth with the intention of conquering a plane of the Abyss. This occured in past adventures that have now been retired. The gears of his empire roll on, but word is that he hasn't been seen in Dorakaa for some time. With Iuz away the mice shall play. When he comes home . . . let's hope it does not happen soon.