Are tumble Checks too easy?

[questionmark]

In our gaming group we have alot of Dex combatants(Monks, Rogues, and Rogue/Fighters) Who all have high ranks into the tumble skill. In combat these characters can tumble in an out of threatened spaces basically at will, since the dc is only 25. I feel the problem stems from the fact that a level 40 Fighter, with all of his combat bonuses, has no chance of getting an AoO on a lvl 15 monk tumbling thruogh his square. You can replace the example lvl 40 fighter with a rogue, monk, dragon, or whatever and the dc is still only 25.

I suppose the question is, should the DM just raise the DC's for tumbling based on the circumstances, or would an opposed role system better solve this problem?

Help!

 

[gfunk]

There have been a couple of 3.5 changes made to tumble.

1. The DC increases by 2 for every additional individual you are trying to tumble past. So, for instance if a rogue is trying to tumble past 3 orcs he must make 3 checks at DCs of 15, 17, or 19. A failure on any one will result in an AoO by the specified orc.

2. Your movement while tumbling is halved. So, if your total mvmt is 30, you can only tumble 15 ft/round.

 

[Pax]

Tumble checks are too easy to make, PERIOD.

Take a 2d level Human rogue. 16 dexterity, Skill Focus (Tumble), Acrobatic, and 5 ranks each of Tumble, Balance, and Jump. He has (5/ranks 3/dex 3/focus 2/tumble 2/balance 2/acrobatic) +17 tumble. He couldn't fail on a roll of one. He's only second level!!

Same rogue, at 10th level. Increase Tumble to 13 ranks, Dexterity to 18, and add Skill Mastery; give him a pair of +2 Gloves of Dexterity and no other magic items. He takes 10, and gets (10/roll 13/ranks 5/dex 3/focus 2/tumble 2/balance 2/acrobatic) a 37 tumble. That's bloody ridiculous ... !!! On a sloped, rubble-strewn, iced-over floor, that tumbles through a single opponent's OCCUPIED space ... (25/base +5/rubble +5/ice +2/slope) ... !!! The hardest possible task, under the worst possible conditions, with a putative average roll ... by a tenth level character!

That is proof that something is damned wrong, in a big way.

What's even worse is, that tumble check DC is unchanged wethr you'r tumbling past the eight-year-old page-boy with a wooden toy sword playing "knights and bandits" ... or a bloody enraged Titan, hell-bent on having to scrape you off the bottom of his shoe!

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

A. 3.5 has some good new rules to take care of this. If you don't care for 3.5, use the S&S rules (basically tumble is an opposed roll versus the opponents reflex save, +10 if through an unoccupied square).

B. You can't take ten avoiding an AoO. You can only take ten when you're not threatened, and clearly if you're tumbling through an area where you would otherwise be subject to an AoO, you're threatened.

 

[Hypersmurf]

B. You can't take ten avoiding an AoO. You can only take ten when you're not threatened, and clearly if you're tumbling through an area where you would otherwise be subject to an AoO, you're threatened.

Originally posted by Pax
Increase Tumble to 13 ranks, Dexterity to 18, and add Skill Mastery...

-Hyp.

 

[questionmark]

If an opposed check system is used what about tumble skill vs tumble skill.

An example: Tokken Rogue(TR for short) is going to tumble through the higher level Evil Fighter(EF)'s occupied square. They each roll a d20 and add their skill bonuses the defender also adds their hitdie. TR total score is 32, EF's is 33. This means that EF gets an AoO against TR.

What do you think?

 

[Argus Decimus Mokira]

I think that EF isnt going to have 13 ranks in Tumble, or a 20 Dexterity, and will most likely never get an AoO.

I like Tumble. It's very useful for rogues and bards, making them capable of providing front-line combat potential. OTOH, it is a wacked ability, much better than any other skill, and provides a far too easy approach to avoiding AoO.

Thanks
-Matt

 

[Spatula]

Tumble checks are too easy to make, PERIOD.

Take a 2d level Human rogue. 16 dexterity, Skill Focus (Tumble), Acrobatic, and 5 ranks each of Tumble, Balance, and Jump. He has (5/ranks 3/dex 3/focus 2/tumble 2/balance 2/acrobatic) +17 tumble. He couldn't fail on a roll of one. He's only second level!!

Yes, and what else can he do? Not much, because he's blown *all* of his feats and a good chunk of his skill points on being a master tumbler.

 

[Pax]

Yes, and what else can he do? Not much, because he's blown *all* of his feats and a good chunk of his skill points on being a master tumbler.

Well, since he can tumble with relative impunity, he can pretty much be assured of gtting flanking, which means, sneak attack.

At third level, he takes Two Weapon fighting. +2d6 sneak, two weapons.

At sixth level, Weapon Finesse. +3d6 sneak, two weapons, and dex bonus to hit.

It's called "planning for the future".

Heck, he could drop the Acrobatic feat for now, and still have a +15 tumble at 2d level.

 

[Pax]

A. 3.5 has some good new rules to take care of this. If you don't care for 3.5, use the S&S rules (basically tumble is an opposed roll versus the opponents reflex save, +10 if through an unoccupied square).

I was using 3.5 rules. That 37 DC was based on the revised PHB entry for Tumble. And it's still unopposed.

As for the S&S rules ... puh-lease! What fighter type is going to have a reflex save high enough, even at twentieth lvel (let alone 10th), to meet a DC of 36 ... ?!?

B. You can't take ten avoiding an AoO. You can only take ten when you're not threatened, and clearly if you're tumbling through an area where you would otherwise be subject to an AoO, you're threatened.

Um ... you can if you take Skill Mastery, which ANY sane tumble-maxxed Rogue will do, immediately if not sooner.