Are Warlocks Eligible to Become Liches?

[Nightfall]

I still say Warlocks don't need to multiclass to gain access to lich template...but then again since you are the DM, you can always change the template a little, make a lichlike template that is especially suited for Warlocks. Just one idea.

 

[Greatwyrm]

You have the right idea Cheiromancer. Since the phylactery requirements just require that you cast spells, and have the requisite caster level, any creature with said caster level that can cast a spell can thusly become a lich (so long as it's a humanoid, or an illithid for an alhoon, or an Outsider for a lichfiend).

Do you actually have to cast spells or just have access to them to make a phylactery? I think a higher level warlock can make just about any item if he has the right feats, thanks to his expanded Use Magic Device skills.

 

[Azaar]

Alzrius wrote:

You have the right idea Cheiromancer. Since the phylactery requirements just require that you cast spells, and have the requisite caster level, any creature with said caster level that can cast a spell can thusly become a lich (so long as it's a humanoid, or an illithid for an alhoon, or an Outsider for a lichfiend).

Perhaps, but the biggest problem there is that the Monster Manual and Libris Mortis give you nothing about any spells required to make the lich's phylactery, which flies in the face (depending on your point of view) of requiring the ability to cast actual spells in the first place. No required spells (unlike 2nd edition AD&D, which gives the list in the Monstrous Manual and Van Richten's Guide to the Lich), nothing. Just the Craft Wondrous Item feat, you have to be at least 11th level and cast spells (although zero spellcasting is involved, and therefore to my mind should be stricken), and that it costs 120,000 gold pieces and 4,800 XP to craft the phylactery.

Myself, I'd errata the Monster Manual to require caster level. That would make the warlock eligible. Alternatively, if WoTC wants to block the warlock from the lich template (and let's face it, folks, so far WoTC is bending over backwards to block warlocks from the meta-SLA feats and the prestige classes that they're supposedly able to qualify for), then they'd better give a spell list.

Even so, though, warlocks can still bypass that, since Imbue Item (once it's obtained at 12th level) allows warlocks to create any item, so long as they possess the appropriate item creation feat.

*adopts Yoda's voice* Vicious circle, this argument is becoming.

 

[Alzrius]

Do you actually have to cast spells or just have access to them to make a phylactery? I think a higher level warlock can make just about any item if he has the right feats, thanks to his expanded Use Magic Device skills.

The MM actually says that in order to make a phylactery, a character must "be able to cast spells" and "have a caster level of 11th or higher", along with having Create Wondrous Item. Hence why you could have the caster level for just spell-like abilities, and then just have, say, one level in Wizard, and that would be enough.

Perhaps, but the biggest problem there is that the Monster Manual and Libris Mortis give you nothing about any spells required to make the lich's phylactery, which flies in the face (depending on your point of view) of requiring the ability to cast actual spells in the first place. No required spells (unlike 2nd edition AD&D, which gives the list in the Monstrous Manual and Van Richten's Guide to the Lich), nothing. Just the Craft Wondrous Item feat, you have to be at least 11th level and cast spells (although zero spellcasting is involved, and therefore to my mind should be stricken), and that it costs 120,000 gold pieces and 4,800 XP to craft the phylactery.

I'm relatively confident the reason they're doing that is because a specific spell list can create trouble for specialist wizards, not to mention clerics, or other types of arcane or divine spellcasters. As it stands, there is no reason you can't have a Warmage lich, for example, but that'd probably be more difficult if lichdom had a specific spell suite you needed to be able to cast.

Even so, though, warlocks can still bypass that, since Imbue Item (once it's obtained at 12th level) allows warlocks to create any item, so long as they possess the appropriate item creation feat.

That's...a very interesting way of looking at it. And phylacteries are magic items (though their thing of not having, as you pointed out, specific spells makes them somewhat unique in that regard). Hmm...this may be worth an email to WotC's customer service.

 

[Azaar]

Alzrius wrote:

I'm relatively confident the reason they're doing that is because a specific spell list can create trouble for specialist wizards, not to mention clerics, or other types of arcane or divine spellcasters.

The lich is typically wizard, sorcerer or cleric. Druids, I don't see becoming liches (though, by the wording, they aren't excluded).

That aside, there isn't really that much trouble involved with doing a spell list. Just a lot more XP cost in using limited wish, wish or miracle, if you don't have the proper spells.

As for CustServ... *shivers*. They've already ripped the warlock to shreds by blocking them from meta-SLA feats, virtually all arcane spellcasting prestige classes and more. I'd email the Sage, myself... at least then, I'd have something that would be worth the effort taken to have a reply. CustServ's apparent lack of common sense with the warlock is about on par with their insistence that the halfling outrider didn't get a BAB progression and remained static, back when Sword and Fist came out.

 

[Greatwyrm]

The MM actually says that in order to make a phylactery, a character must "be able to cast spells" and "have a caster level of 11th or higher", along with having Create Wondrous Item. Hence why you could have the caster level for just spell-like abilities, and then just have, say, one level in Wizard, and that would be enough.

The Imbue Item ability Azaar mentioned is what I was thinking of. Even without that, a warlock with access to the proper scrolls or wands could still do it. With the ability to take 10 on UMD, you wouldn't even need max ranks to pull off most of the spells needed.

 

[Eremite]

(snip) CustServ's apparent lack of common sense with the warlock is about on par with their insistence that the halfling outrider didn't get a BAB progression and remained static, back when Sword and Fist came out.

Without wanting to be seen to be defending judgements made by WotC's CustServ (I prefer the opinions given on these boards), I seem to recall that the problem with the Outrider ruling was due to the author's insistence that the PrC wasn't supposed to have a BAB.

 

[drnuncheon]

Libris Mortis introduced a variant lich known as the lichfiend: outsiders who achieved lichdom.

Taking a page from Green Ronin, I see. (Jalie Squarefoot, the lich fiend, from Legions of Hell and Hell in Freeport.) I wonder how close it turned out?

J

 

[Alzrius]

Alzrius wrote:The lich is typically wizard, sorcerer or cleric. Druids, I don't see becoming liches (though, by the wording, they aren't excluded).

I notice you didn't mention, for example, the warmage lich I mentioned previously. There are a lot more arcane and divine spellcasters out there than wizards, sorcerers, clerics, and druids. A list of specific spells just narrows the field, which is unnecessary.

That aside, there isn't really that much trouble involved with doing a spell list. Just a lot more XP cost in using limited wish, wish or miracle, if you don't have the proper spells.

Which is a good idea, but still wouldn't be perfect. A 22nd level Ranger or Hexblade can, as it is now, become a lich. They couldn't under the system you're proposing, as they never get wish, limited wish, or miracle. A warmage of any level wouldn't be able to become a lich, as they don't get access to those spells either. Hells, as it is now, you can even have a Healer lich (a very cool idea for a good lich, IMHO), which you couldn't do with a specific spell list, most likely.

Not requiring specific spells to become a lich is best for a game that's about options, not restrictions.

 

[Alzrius]

The Imbue Item ability Azaar mentioned is what I was thinking of.

Wish you had said so, that would have been something else then.

Even without that, a warlock with access to the proper scrolls or wands could still do it. With the ability to take 10 on UMD, you wouldn't even need max ranks to pull off most of the spells needed.

Actually, that wouldn't fly. Using scrolls or wands isn't casting spells, it's activating magic items.