Are Warlocks Eligible to Become Liches?

[Azaar]

Alzrius wrote:

I notice you didn't mention, for example, the warmage lich I mentioned previously. There are a lot more arcane and divine spellcasters out there than wizards, sorcerers, clerics, and druids. A list of specific spells just narrows the field, which is unnecessary.

Note that I also said typically. I was mentioning the original core classes, since that's what the Monster Manual mentions, focusing mostly on wizard and sorcerer. That's not me trying to say they're the only ones that can fit, just going by the generalities of the template. Heck, I stretched by adding druid to the list, because druids typically don't pursue such a path (now, an ex-druid/blighter... that might be another story).

As to the list of spells... I view it as adding flavor to the pursuit of lichdom. If I were to DM such a situation, I would make certain that I came up with a list of spells required for it. I feel that it would add to the experience, not detract from it. But I'm not going to make up a list that they wind up can't qualify for. I'm willing to work with the prospective lich-to-be and work something out with them.

Alzrius wrote:

Which is a good idea, but still wouldn't be perfect. A 22nd level Ranger or Hexblade can, as it is now, become a lich. They couldn't under the system you're proposing, as they never get wish, limited wish, or miracle. A warmage of any level wouldn't be able to become a lich, as they don't get access to those spells either. Hells, as it is now, you can even have a Healer lich (a very cool idea for a good lich, IMHO), which you couldn't do with a specific spell list, most likely.

And quite honestly, they (rangers and hexblades) shouldn't be, but that's just my interpretation of it. If they want to get 11 levels of cleric/wizard/sorcerer/warmage/wu jen/whatever, then I won't argue the point so much. But a straight-classed ranger or hexblade, to my mind, shouldn't be eligible to pursue lichdom. But that's another issue entirely, and likely for another thread.

I'll stick by my opinion that the warlock, despite not casting spells per se, can pursue lichdom. If I'm proved wrong... well, that's something I'll likely house-rule to allow.

 

[Greatwyrm]

Actually, that wouldn't fly. Using scrolls or wands isn't casting spells, it's activating magic items.

With Use Magic Device, it's only a DC 20 check to emulate a class feature (like spellcasting). A warlock of high enough level to have Imbue Item wouldn't even need max ranks to do this reliably.

EDIT: Or, he could just whip up a scroll of wish , wish for the stinkin' phylactery to be finished, pay some extra xp, and be done with it.

 

[Alzrius]

With Use Magic Device, it's only a DC 20 check to emulate a class feature (like spellcasting).

That only works as far as activating an existing item goes. That wouldn't work for constructing a magic item, like a phylactery.

 

[Greatwyrm]

That only works as far as activating an existing item goes. That wouldn't work for constructing a magic item, like a phylactery.

So you wouldn't let a warlock who can take 10 to fake being able to cast a 9th level spell like wish also take 10 to fake being able to cast zero level spells as a class ability?

 

[Caliban]

So you wouldn't let a warlock who can take 10 to fake being able to cast a 9th level spell like wish also take 10 to fake being able to cast zero level spells as a class ability?

Only if he was emulating the class ability in order to activate a magic item (such as when activating wand - you only need a 0 caster level to do that).

The skill is there to let you use magic items. It doesn't actually give you any other abilities.

It doesn't let you emulate a different alignment in order to bypass a magical trap keyed to alignment. It will let you emulate an alignment in order to use a magic item that requires a specific alignment.

It doesn't let you emulate spellcasting ability in order to create magic items. It will let you emulate spellcasting ability in order to activatea scroll, wand, or staff.

 

[Greatwyrm]

You're right, UMD, by itself, doesn't do any of that stuff. However, UMD, with Imbue Item, does let you emulate having access to 9th level arcane and divine spells, if you roll high enough. What I'm getting at is that I think it's a bit silly to say Imbue Item gives you enough power to make a scroll of wish, but it doesn't give you enough power to emulate being able to cast 0-level spells for making magic items.

 

[JackGiantkiller]

""It doesn't let you emulate a different alignment in order to bypass a magical trap keyed to alignment""

Why not? According to the 3.5 SRD,

"Emulate an Alignment: Some magic items have positive or negative effects based on the user’s alignment. Use Magic Device lets you use these items as if you were of an alignment of your choice. You can emulate only one alignment at a time."

Magical traps are magic items that have a negative effect based on alignment. And that is precisely the sort of use a rogue would put the skill to.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

""It doesn't let you emulate a different alignment in order to bypass a magical trap keyed to alignment""

Why not? According to the 3.5 SRD,

"Emulate an Alignment: Some magic items have positive or negative effects based on the user’s alignment. Use Magic Device lets you use these items as if you were of an alignment of your choice. You can emulate only one alignment at a time."

Magical traps are magic items that have a negative effect based on alignment. And that is precisely the sort of use a rogue would put the skill to.

Because you aren't using a magic item when you set off an alignment-based trap?

 

[Caliban]

""It doesn't let you emulate a different alignment in order to bypass a magical trap keyed to alignment""

Why not? According to the 3.5 SRD,

"Emulate an Alignment: Some magic items have positive or negative effects based on the user’s alignment. Use Magic Device lets you use these items as if you were of an alignment of your choice. You can emulate only one alignment at a time."

Magical traps are magic items that have a negative effect based on alignment. And that is precisely the sort of use a rogue would put the skill to.

The grand majority magic traps that key off alignment are spells, not items. I.e. Glyphs, Wards, Symbols, etc. Use magic device is of no use against them. (other than being used to trigger a magic item that will hide your alignment. )

Even if it was a "Magical Item" trap, Use Magic Device probably still wouldn't work, but I suppose it's possible that a trap could be designed so that it could be bypassed with UMD. It might even be designed so that it could ONLY be bypassed with UMD, to filter out the non rogues and bards.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

I'd say to do it if you want, it is your game. Yes, I know that this is the "Rules" section of the site but I think too often we all get wrapped up in whether or not the rules will "allow" us to do something and we forget that it is OUR game and we can do anything we want.