D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Yaarel]

I'm guessing we're too late to suggest it to them for 5.5

I wish I had any hope in it happening!

I dont see how it would be too late?

The designers seem open to splitting content into more convenient books.

If the Players Handbook splits into two books, the first one for tiers 1-4, 5-8, and 9-12 already has the necessary content with the game rules.

Presumably, these tiers will see much use for most campaigns.

The second book for tiers, 13-16, 17-20, and 21-24, can think more carefully about how the game plays at these higher tiers.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

A fighter cannot choose to be great at exploration unless the DM specifically sets up the exploration for them.

they can take the skills but so can anyone else.

A wizard, no problem.

2 spells per level can take 1 combat each level and alternate with social and exploration and still have all the options In fact since you can prep 1 per level plus int mod by level 8 you can prep11 (if you keep to a 16 stat) and do 2 combat spells per level of spell (so 8) and have 3 'other' spells on your normal prep list

since 2e I have found most people have 2-3 'common' prep lists... 1 for 'dungeon delves or known combat days' 1 for travel days and 1 for in town days... sometimes this means you have the wrong set prepped (Hey town got attacked or the dungeon has a lot of social things) but that is the price for versatility

A ranger cannot choose to be great at social unless it is specifically geared for them.

at least a ranger gets spells and spell slots... they can pick up SOME versatility

A cleric cannot choose to be the damage dealer unless it is set up specifically for them. A wizard, no problem.

Cleric I have to stop you at...

about half the domains a cleric can pick are heavy armor and martial weapons and either a second attack like a fighter or +1d8 radiant damage.
half the bards and hexblades have medium armor and martial weapons and can get 2nd attack
even wizards with bladesinger can get a second attack and a martial weapon

you have to get to level 11 before the fighter can't have a full caster able to keep up (or at least close) all the while still having spells...


the biggest eye opener I had was when I used the Middle Earth 5e books to run a martial only campaign. There is a class called warden. It is basically a bard (with renamed inspiration and song of rest) that doesn't get spells or counter charm. That pitch (and how we read it) sounded like bull... not getting anything that can replace spells alone should make this the weakest class... but with no other casters we found a 'warden' (bard losing spell casting) was fair and balanced with a warrior (fighter)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

So it seems like one thing DMs could do at tables where this is perceived to be a problem is to switch up some monster saving throws.

a really good one is give a blanket bonus to all the untrained ones... even a +2 is a big help.
I also take a lot of monsters that don't have trained ones and give them training in at least 1.

I also give magic resistance more often, and even no legendary leaders will have 1 legendary resist per day.

Take the hobgoblin in the MM (the big leader one) I take him and change his training in saves to Dex, Con, and Wis, then give 1/2 prof to other 3... and a legendary resist 1/day and the fighter second wind and action surge... and he is still a sitting duck if the PCs can get him cornered

 

[GMforPowergamers]

First, this is only true if the DM doesn't allow the players to control the pace of play, I've seen plenty of times where DMs do.

or random or story based...

not every adventuring day CAN be 6-8 encounters and make sense.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Sure, but then it's a DM problem, not a caster problem. The DM must have 6-8 encounters before a long rest is allowed or balance goes to hell.

again that REALLY limits story telling...

you can't have a small 5 room dungeon where not every room in an encounter (not enough)
you can't have a battle where the PCs are in town when it is invaded... (they were rested and now you don't have 7 encounters you have 1)
you can't roll random encounters on the travel time (I do a lot of hex crawls, I can't justify 5+ encounters everyday)

 

[Maxperson]

again that REALLY limits story telling...

you can't have a small 5 room dungeon where not every room in an encounter (not enough)
you can't have a battle where the PCs are in town when it is invaded... (they were rested and now you don't have 7 encounters you have 1)
you can't roll random encounters on the travel time (I do a lot of hex crawls, I can't justify 5+ encounters everyday)

That's why you have to lengthen long rests to once a week or just when 6-8 encounters are done. You can't leave it at 24 hours.

 

[Giant Octopodes]

This actually the part of high tier gaming that is fun. As a DM, I get to watch players creating the setting! They are doing the city-building, the world-building.

As a DM, think about how the city and the world respond. Encourage players to build stable institutions. Enjoy the worldbuilding as it happens in live time.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. In my homebrew campaign, I also take it one step further- anything "broken" I can think of that a high level player can do, someone in the game world could also have thought of, so I incorporate some of that into my own world building. For example, with a Wizard with access to 9th level spells, including Wish and Simulacrum, I'm sure folks have considered that they can have limitless duplicates of themselves. You create the Simulacrum, it wishes for a ruby worth enough to create a Simulacrum, and casts Simulacrum with you as the target, the new clone casts wish, etc etc. They can't replenish spell slots but nor does it cost you anything beyond the initial 1500GP expense, and there's no limit to how far the chain can go. The only "annoying" part is that while the original will follow your orders directly, you have to order it to order the second one to do something, and so on and so forth.

So in my world, a huge portion of the Guards and Laborers for a nation steeped in Magic are formed of 'tapped out' clones who have expended all their spell slots. The lore includes the idea that early on he would chain dispel them and start over, but he messed that up at one point and missed a link, resulting in a whole branch of them which does not respond to orders (directly or indirectly). They now have formed a secret society, the "Order of the Free Mind", dedicated to toppling the social structures of that nation. Since they can easily blend in with the 'legitimate' clones they're a real thorn in his side.

IMHO, take how 'broken' the world can be via high level magic and make it a Feature, not a bug! Think through some of the logical consequences of teleport circles and other high level effects and incorporate them in your game world, and when the players 'break' the world with their chicanery, have it live and breathe and respond to them, rather than saying 'no', and the world will be richer for it (not to mention your job is easier).

 

[Mort]

again that REALLY limits story telling...

you can't have a small 5 room dungeon where not every room in an encounter (not enough)
you can't have a battle where the PCs are in town when it is invaded... (they were rested and now you don't have 7 encounters you have 1)
you can't roll random encounters on the travel time (I do a lot of hex crawls, I can't justify 5+ encounters everyday)

I have found that encounters like sieges are great for fighters and barbarians. You can use waves and the like to really push the casters resource management. While fighters and barbarians don't have that issue (as long as you are mindful of the fact that fighters still need HP replenishment).

 

[Shadowedeyes]

I couldn't quite figure out how to put into words, but here goes. I think wizards are both overestimated while still being arguably the most powerful class in the game. White room discussion does often ignores hurdles that wizards have to face in game (having/prepping the right spells, figuring out which spells will be most effective in certain situations, legendary resistance/successful saving throws), but the arguments are technically right that a perfectly played wizard could do everything that is being argued. I'm sure after 9 pages this has probably already been mentioned to be fair.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

That's why you have to lengthen long rests to once a week or just when 6-8 encounters are done. You can't leave it at 24 hours.

yes it worked well when i made it a week