D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Minigiant]

Mediocre means not very good.

Of course. I didn't use the the word good for a reason.

If you use arrays, sure. If you roll stats, random being what it is, you will likely have at least one smart fighter, one wise fighter and one charismatic fighter. Since you can select skills, the group should be fantastic in combat and decent to good at exploration and social. It's unlikely to be mediocre at any pillar, but random also being what it is, it's possible.

The fighters will still be mediocre as Fighter is almost a MAD class. Fighters typicalls what a 14 at least is STR, DEX, and CON and suffer boosting INT/WIS/CHA. The ones who benefit from INT/WIS/CHA do so by casting wizard spells.

It depends on what you find to be decent. Most of the wizard's social spells also get him in trouble, arrested or killed, since they involve mind control/charm or invading thought and mind. Those spells would almost certainly be illegal and harshly punished in any civilized country. The social spells are poor, not even rising to the level of mediocre.

Thaat's why I said decent. Wizard social spells are dangerous and are mostly emergency buttons or highly illegal/dangerous. But a wiard can afford to bump CHA and has the spells. Most classes can't do that.

That's fine, but when you go for control, it's all or nothing. There will be many rounds where the wizard simply wasted his turn and a spell slot. It's great when it works, but it sucks when it doesn't. Great + Suck = Mediocre.

Sure. My point is the wizard has the option. The Wizard at base has access to 9 Roles before race and background and can cut anyof the 9 to devote more resources to any role they keep.

Think of it this way. Imagine a game with all 12 PCs, one of each base classes. The wizard is the only class that is almost guaranteed to be able to carve out a unique niche for itself AND contribute to combat but at a well above average ability.

Whereas the Fighter and Barbarian would be doing Rock Paper Scissor to see who gets to be the main frontline defender.

 

[Maxperson]

The fighters will still be mediocre as Fighter is almost a MAD class. Fighters typicalls what a 14 at least is STR, DEX, and CON and suffer boosting INT/WIS/CHA. The ones who benefit from INT/WIS/CHA do so by casting wizard spells.

Right, which is why I specified rolling where you don't always have control over where your stats go.

Thaat's why I said decent. Wizard social spells are dangerous and are mostly emergency buttons or highly illegal/dangerous. But a wiard can afford to bump CHA and has the spells. Most classes can't do that.

See, I don't see that as decent. They're an outright liability when used. A wizard's exploration spells are much better, or were prior to 5e. Now some of the best ones like teleport and dimension door are also dangerous to use.

Sure. My point is the wizard has the option. The Wizard at base has access to 9 Roles before race and background and can cut anyof the 9 to devote more resources to any role they keep.

I don't mind if they have the option to be good at a few roles and are versatile. They will usually take roles that no one else has taken so everyone shines. Further, having access to 9 roles as options means that the wizard has to have found a whole lot of spells and added them to the spell book. If they find few spells, then they won't have the option for 9 roles.

Think of it this way. Imagine a game with all 12 PCs, one of each base classes. The wizard is the only class that is almost guaranteed to be able to carve out a unique niche for itself AND contribute to combat but at a well above average ability.

Whereas the Fighter and Barbarian would be doing Rock Paper Scissor to see who gets to be the main frontline defender.

I disagree. Each class is different enough to be unique and contribute. The fighter and barbarian are very different at what they do, and having two big buff people out front is a boon. I guess I see classes as more than a role. They're also a flavor, so I don't care if 3 people are ice cream. One is a chocolate chip ice cream cookie, one is strawberry cone and one is bubblegum in a cup.

 

[Yaarel]

The Wizard is MAD too.

Obviously, the highest score goes to Intelligence, but then there is a painful decision between Dexterity and Constitution. Add the importance of Wisdom for saves and perception skill, Charisma seems far away.

Only Strength is clearly a dump ability. But many character concepts want Strength for concept reasons.

 

[Mort]

The Wizard isn't really All That

The Wizard just has All That

The two statements are different.

If you look at the Party roles: Damage, Defender, Healer, Support, Control, Explorer, Lockpick, Sage, Scout, Utility, and Face.

There are only 2 ahigh level wizard can't do: Defender and Healer

The high level wizard can do all the other roles are an average or better quality all at the same time. And I'm only saying average because Wizards are average Faces. The Wizard at high levels is can't be the Healer, is poor at Defender, is an average Face, and is above average to the best at everything else.

So as a wizard once you get to mid-levels, never have to worry about not getting spotlight and and have to actively choose not to outshine others.

If the campaign allows access to Strixhaven, the wizard can have access to good healing: cure wounds, lesser restoration, revivify, and greater restoration. Not as good as the cleric but good enough in a pinch as a backup healer.

As @ECMO3 mentioned a bladesinger makes an ok Defender, not amazing but certainly serviceable. Booming blade alone (a cantrip) gives the bladesinger more ability to control opponents than most martial builds!

The designers just can't seem to help themselves in giving the wizard more and more versatility with every supplement. Supplements also often expand fighter options (Tasha's did) but the results are pretty lopsided as to who gets more.

 

[Undrave]

The only reason why this doesn't happen often is because wizard players are pyromaniacs and can't help themselves. They gotta FIREBALL

FIREBALL! Just Fireball!

If the campaign allows access to Strixhaven, the wizard can have access to good healing: cure wounds, lesser restoration, revivify, and greater restoration. Not as good as the cleric but good enough in a pinch as a backup healer.

As @ECMO3 mentioned a bladesinger makes an ok Defender, not amazing but certainly serviceable. Booming blade alone (a cantrip) gives the bladesinger more ability to control opponents than most martial builds!

The designers just can't seem to help themselves in giving the wizard more and more versatility with every supplement. Supplements also often expand fighter options (Tasha's did) but the results are pretty lopsided as to who gets more.

Oh yeah! Can we take a minute to point out that WotC released an ENTIRE SETTING BOOK about a SCHOOL OF WIZARDRY?! An entire book about nothing but spellcasters and giving them more option? The Wizard bias is real...

When are we getting a martial supplement about, I dunno, crafting unique equipment out of monster parts and a bunch of new maneuvers and feats?

 

[Minigiant]

See, I don't see that as decent. They're an outright liability when used. A wizard's exploration spells are much better, or were prior to 5e. Now some of the best ones like teleport and dimension door are also dangerous to use.

I don't mind if they have the option to be good at a few roles and are versatile. They will usually take roles that no one else has taken so everyone shines. Further, having access to 9 roles as options means that the wizard has to have found a whole lot of spells and added them to the spell book. If they find few spells, then they won't have the option for 9 roles.

But they have the spells. For the skill based Roles, the wizard can get the Skills + Spells of the role. And with starting with 6 spells and getting 2 per level up, the wizard typically has the spells

Now the wizard is not usually the best nor top tier at a role. Sage, Control,and Utility are their forte.

That's why I say the Wizard isn't All That but just has All That.

And like @ECMO3 @Mort and @Undrave said, WOTC can't help themselves in making the Wizard more versatile and strong in the new role. Asking around what roles everyone is gonna be isnormalbut for a wizard player it is a must.

 

[James Gasik]

Yeah, I mean, just look at spellcasters in general, and see how many new spells have been introduced since the PHB, and how many of them each spellcasting class gets access to. WotC is conservative about a lot of things, but making new spells isn't one of those things.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Yeah, I mean, just look at spellcasters in general, and see how many new spells have been introduced since the PHB, and how many of them each spellcasting class gets access to. WotC is conservative about a lot of things, but making new spells isn't one of those things.

And yet 5e is arguably very conservative in this regard compared to most prior editons. By this point in 2e or 3e, wizards had a lot more spells to pick from (probably at least one order of magnitude more).

 

[Garthanos]

As @ECMO3 mentioned a bladesinger makes an ok Defender, not amazing but certainly serviceable. Booming blade alone (a cantrip) gives the bladesinger more ability to control opponents than most martial builds!

The best and amazing defender i have seen built is a multiclass caster (with combining features) it may start serviceable early but gets good and great at 6 and 9 if I remember and it might have dipped into martial but not much... and if you designed it clever it still has the heavy wizard distance control.

 

[DND_Reborn]

And yet 5e is arguably very conservative in this regard compared to most prior editons. By this point in 2e or 3e, wizards had a lot more spells to pick from (probably at least one order of magnitude more).

I can't speak for 3E since I didn't play it much, but in 2E wizards have a little over 300 spells, and have just shy of 300 spells in 5E (maybe more now if anything new is in newer books?).

More certainly, but I wouldn't call that "a lot more spells", certainly not "one order of magnitude more".

FWIW, a bit issue IMO is how much overlap there is between spellcasting lists, especially on the Wizard's part! So, our revised spell list removed a lot of the sameyness and cut Wizard spells down by nearly 100 spells.