D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Bill Zebub]

The current Wizard is a guy who tries to be every damn role on the team while being just as good as a specialist at it.

Is that true of every wizard, all the time?

I would have thought...assuming all the rants in this thread are true...that it would be more accurate to say that the Wizard "can fill" any role on the team, but not all of them simultaneously.

 

[Undrave]

I disagree. The wizard does their job exceptionally well with little need for optimization and essentially no requirement for the DM to ensure they get spotlight time.

Unless heavily optimized, I would say that most of the other classes are merely adequate at their roles. Just as an example, take the fighter. He's the linebacker right? Responsible for protecting the QB? Then why the heck is something like Sentinel a feat instead of baked directly into his kit!?

or Goading Attack! Why didn't the Paladin keep his 4e Divine Challenge? At the very least they could have made it a spell.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I don't respond to posts that tell me what my position is (especially if it's disguised as a question). If you don't understand and would like to ask a clarifying question go ahead.

Am I understanding your position correctly? It seems like you are saying that it doesn't matter if Peyton Manning is consistently the MVP as long as everyone else on the team also gets to play.

This is the one and only time I'm jumping through this hoop. Feel free answer the question or not. If your response is going to be that you're not going to respond because my phrasing offends your sensibilities or something, then spare yourself the effort and feel free not to respond at all.

 

[Undrave]

Is that true of every wizard, all the time?

I would have thought...assuming all the rants in this thread are true...that it would be more accurate to say that the Wizard "can fill" any role on the team, but not all of them simultaneously.

Not all Wizard and not all the time, but the class itself is built in such a way as to being able to replace anybody on the party after certain levels, and it's possible to build a Wizard who can alternate between roles with a night's rest.

Instead of asking 'what should a Wizard be good at?' while building the class, they went 'what spells does the Wizard need to be good at X?' without wondering if it was necessary for the Wizard to be good at X or not.

 

[Mort]

or Goading Attack! Why didn't the Paladin keep his 4e Divine Challenge? At the very least they could have made it a spell.

The paladin has compelled duel - no damage but at least a similar effect (incentivize attacking the paladin over other targets).

Goading attack had a very loud vocal minority up in arms (why is the fighter casting spells?!?) Personally thought it was great, but WoTC decided to avoid that direction.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Since some people don't seem to want some classes to be brought up to the Wizard's level, it seems that the easiest solution may be to go back to AD&D, and let classes less powerful than the Wizard gain levels faster!

I kind of like this, but damn, how did we get to the point where this makes sense? It'd actually be interesting to see someone like Fighter be literally better at the human-level things and break game mechanical barriers faster.

Yes, it would be best if everything was designed properly, but I would be interested to see this play out as a quick fix. Like, where is the sweet spot, 1.5x levels? Is there a sweet spot, is everything still off? It's basically just bigger base numbers, can it fix anything?

 

[Undrave]

The paladin has compelled duel - no damage but at least a similar effect (incentivize attacking the paladin over other targets).

Goading attack had a very loud vocal minority up in arms (why is the fighter casting spells?!?) Personally thought it was great, but WoTC decided to avoid that direction.

Divine Challenge should work like Hex and be something you can transfer to another target for a while. Compelled Duel restricts you just as much as the target and it doesn’t offer the DM an interesting choice where the creature might decide to tank the damage for ignoring the Paladin if they are offered an alternative. I think it makes for more interesting back and forth.

AUGH! And if Goading Attack is a spell, then so is using Intimidate to make an enemy surrender.

 

[Mort]

Divine Challenge should work like Hex and be something you can transfer to another target for a while. Compelled Duel restricts you just as much as the target and it doesn’t offer the DM an interesting choice where the creature might decide to tank the damage for ignoring the Paladin if they are offered an alternative. I think it makes for more interesting back and forth.

While I agree and it would be a cool spell/ability, I'm certainly not going to worry TOO much. Paladins, don't need any help being top tier.

AUGH! And if Goading Attack is a spell, then so is using Intimidate to make an enemy surrender.

Oh I agree, I thought it was a cool thematic ability, fully in line with what a fighter SHOULD be able to do.

As for using intimidate to force a surrender - sure, but there are LOTS of DMs who feel skills should not be able to reach that level of force. It's one of the big disconnects, as mentioned much earlier in the thread. Fighter abilities/skills face heavy "realism" scrutiny, while wizards get the "it's magic..." pass.

 

[Cruentus]

Is that true of every wizard, all the time?

I would have thought...assuming all the rants in this thread are true...that it would be more accurate to say that the Wizard "can fill" any role on the team, but not all of them simultaneously.

The only role it can't fill simultaneously on the team is healer, a la a cleric who might use healing during combat, which as everyone knows is sub optimal... But since every character has the ability to heal with a short rest or heal everything on a long rest, its actually a rather unnecessary "role".

I've DM'd entire parties of spell casters, and they did perfectly well without any of the other "roles" present. That's either a bug or a feature, depending on your view. Its a bug in my mind. No niche protection, no clear role, everyone casts magic, everyone just as able to damage/absorb damage/remove social and exploration pillars/exit stage right quickly, etc. No real downside.

And, if you add in a level 2 (Oooh! A whole 300xps needed; the horror!) or so dip in fighter - extra HP, action surge, and second wind rolled in too...

 

[Bill Zebub]

Am I understanding your position correctly? It seems like you are saying that it doesn't matter if Peyton Manning is consistently the MVP as long as everyone else on the team also gets to play.

I’m so glad you asked!

No, I’m not saying it’s “ok as long as everybody gets to play” I’m saying that describing it as “Manning, Perry, and a bunch of guys watching from the bench” is hyperbolic.

Now, it’s fair to say that there were a handful of players (and one head coach) who got all the fame and glory, and a bunch more who were excellent players and were vital to the team, but who didn’t become household names or pick up as many lucrative sponsorships.

Assuming that the complaints about wizards expressed in this thread are true, I think this version of the football story is a better analogy: the Fighter isn’t sitting on the bench watching, they are making a vital contribution. Maybe not as much, and not as flashy, as the wizard (again, assuming the critiques are accurate) but very much contributing.

And it’s also totally fair to say, “I don’t want to be in the shadow of the superstar! Contributing almost as much isn’t fun for me!” I don’t personally feel that way, but if you do that’s completely valid.

In other words, I don’t think the analogy has to be taken to an exaggerated extreme to make a valid point. And doing so doesn’t persuade anybody; it just gets people who already agree to keep agreeing.