D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[TwoSix]

Again, we play very different games. In an RP heavy game if the spotlight isn't being shared that's either player preference or, IMHO, poor DMing.

If the spotlight isn't being shared in a game based around roles and niche protection, I'm going to blame the system. I mean, it's sort of the whole point of roles.

I play cooperative games, not one where everyone is scrambling to outdo each other.

I totally understand. Lackadaisical games where the players don't strongly advocate to impact the story can be a lot of fun for a laid-back group. They're just not going to be type of game where design issues become apparent.

 

[Oofta]

Ok, so, outside of combat, what does the fighter class bring to the table? More specifically, how does the fighter class aid the player in any situation outside of combat?

In a RP heavy game, the players drive the narrative. The caster classes (especially the wizard with their huge versatility) have some clear tools to aid the player in driving the narrative. What does the fighter class provide in that direction?

So without spells PCs are drooling lumps talking to themselves?

Players of all types of PCs bring in creativity, personality, interpersonal relationships that they establish, goals and desires. Fighters can bring in different proficiencies and expertise others are lacking.

I don't remember the last time a spell made that big of a difference outside of combat.

 

[Fanaelialae]

So without spells PCs are drooling lumps talking to themselves?

Players of all types of PCs bring in creativity, personality, interpersonal relationships that they establish, goals and desires. Fighters can bring in different proficiencies and expertise others are lacking.

I don't remember the last time a spell made that big of a difference outside of combat.

One possibility is that your players aren't that good at using magic creatively. Another is that maybe the caster players intentionally hold back because they don't want to overshadow the martials (I do this quite often myself).

I could give you a laundry list of times that spells have had a dramatic impact on the course of campaigns I've played over the years. Pretty sure I've already told quite a few of those stories in this very thread.

 

[Asisreo]

You seem like you're working with some skewed facts. No one is claiming that Meteor Swarm is the top end of a wizard's single target damage. It's an AoE spell. Comparing the fighter's single target damage to an AoE is like claiming that missile strikes have a lower chance of killing a specific target than sniper bullets, so therefore missiles are clearly less dangerous than bullets from a sniper rifle.

It's not that Meteor Swarm itself is supposed to be all-powerful mechanically, but it's often used from a narrative argument to say "See, the wizard can just summon meteors while the fighter plays with sticks."

But the point is that the "meteor" is different than a realistic meteor in that a CR 2 human can decently hope to survive a magical meteor point-blank. So clearly magic can't be considered a one-to-one with their realistic counterpart.

The wizard has a myriad of options for dealing with the bandit captain. Just for starters, cast forcecage on him and then kill him (or not) at your leisure. Unlike with the fighter, if the bandit survives the opening salvo, they can't so much as hit back.

While it should be no surprise a level 7 spell can incapacitate a CR 2 creature in a single turn, it also shows another point against the wizard's "almighty" power.

During a fight, it's great to be able to incapacitate a creature with one action and keep them from doing melee damage, potentially kiting them, etc. But this "powerful" cage is actually...very bad at being a cage.

Setting aside the size restrictions, it only lasts an hour. This means forcecage is capable of being useful in keeping someone in-place for about 4 hours at max, taking up 7th, 8th, and 9th-level slots. You could knock the creature unconscious, but it will wake up within 1d4 hours, meaning the wizard still has to monitor them lest they break free.

All this, and thinking about the types of threats where you would like to use Forcecage, would it really be worth it? A balor has the Charisma and magic resistance to leave the cage anyways. A pit fiend variant can summon devils and still has access to its fireball/wall of fire/hold person. A lich can guarantee their plane shift with a legendary resistance.

High level threats aren't as susceptible to this kind of restraints and low-level threats would happily eat up your 7th-level slot.

 

[Oofta]

One possibility is that your players aren't that good at using magic creatively. Another is that maybe the caster players intentionally hold back because they don't want to overshadow the martials (I do this quite often myself).

I could give you a laundry list of times that spells have had a dramatic impact on the course of campaigns I've played over the years. Pretty sure I've already told quite a few of those stories in this very thread.

Or it could be that I've never seen casters pull out the "I win" button in any game I've played, whether it's a home game or AL whether I'm DMing or not. At least not any more often than other characters influence the outcome of the game.

 

[Undrave]

They're awesome at tier 1 - but Rage falls off badly because elemental damage becomes much more common at high level.

Which is why everybody goes Bear totem

 

[Mort]

So without spells PCs are drooling lumps talking to themselves?

The rogue gets a lot of skills plus expertise to aid in out of combat situations (and reliable talent at higher levels).
The bard gets good skills, expertise as well, plus a host of spellcasting options that aid outside of combat.
The wizard gets a versatile ritual and spell list.
The fighter gets...?

Yes, THE PLAYER can talk and be dynamic and have a big impact on the play. But sometimes, the PLAYER could use some help instead of just relying on their own abilities.

Players of all types of PCs bring in creativity, personality, interpersonal relationships that they establish, goals and desires. Fighters can bring in different proficiencies and expertise others are lacking.

But those are examples of the PLAYERS contributing to each other's strengths and shoring up each other's weaknesses. And that's great, that's what gaming is all about. But it really doesn't answer the question of how much the various classes aid on that front. The contention being that the wizard class aids significantly, the fighter class aids not at all.

I don't remember the last time a spell made that big of a difference outside of combat.

No one has ever used, augury, or suggestion, or knock? No one has ever used invisibility or scrying or arcane eye? No one has ever used disguise self, alter self etc.?

 

[Maxperson]

What happened to "tactical infinity"?

That the local version of "strategical infinity?"

I don't think these claims are true of 5e D&D. They're certainly not true of D&D in general - 4e D&D, for instance, has player-authored quests - and I think that 5e D&D is supposed to be able to (roughly) emulate other versions.

With regard to setting up impossible goals, I don't think any D&D edition has encouraged that, except maybe 1e, because Gygax might have done such a thing. Super difficult goals were/are fair game, but they should at least be achievable.

With regard to the DM always deciding the scenario, that's not true of any edition of D&D. Player driven goals were always a thing, though more common now than in AD&D.

 

[Maxperson]

I'll be honest, we just have completely different game experiences then. Every game I've played in for the last 30 years, the caster players have been the overall drivers of the narrative once they start getting a fair amount of utility spells. Warriors contribute, but they don't drive the car.

What do you consider a turning point? I consider the turning points to be where the story has a major shift in direction, and those happen more often through RP choices in my experience than some cast spell.

On a local level casting a spell will shift direction a lot, but so can the fighter saying, "Let's not go to town like we planned and just head straight to the mine." In prior editions I think spells played more influence on the local level than martial stuff did, but martial stuff was still significant.

 

[Maxperson]

If that ever happens, I'll let you know. Hasn't yet in decades of play.

Meanwhile that encounter that could have been a TPK except the fighter could take the hits second wind and action surge does happen. Or the rogue critting on a sneak attack. Or ... well a bunch of turning points, including a wizard pulling the metaphorical rabbit out their hat.

But the miracle teleport save? Nope.

I did it in 3e. We were 17th level or so at the time and we walked into a trap where the enemy basically surprised us and dropped a mountain on top of us. It was auto death. However, my wizard had that spell memorized that allowed me to interrupt anything, even surprise and take one round of actions(Celerity I think). I used that and grabbed the one other PC close enough to me and teleported out. Everyone else died, but because my wizard survived, I was eventually able to get the bodies back and raise them.