D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[James Gasik]

Real castles had corner stones with religious rituals done on them to protect the inhabitants... there is real world precedence for protecting even everyday homes. The hearth sprites are appeased to keep them happy and in return they might provide the home some protection but tbh in a highly magical world like D&D often implies knock the tops off.

Since D&D has no real system for "hedge magic", such superstitions and beliefs would have no power unless they were spells.

That having been said, I'd love for D&D to explore the idea of magic anyone can invoke, including making pacts with spirits without becoming a Warlock or something.

 

[Garthanos]

Since D&D has no real system for "hedge magic", such superstitions and beliefs would have no power unless they were spells.

Then they are... in game world household spirits who help protect houses just by being bribed and priest rituals that protect castles blocking teleport since that was the example. Not sure why you assume these are not?

 

[James Gasik]

Then they are... household spirits who help protect houses and priest rituals that protect castles blocking teleport since that was the example. Not sure why you assume these are not?

What I mean is, where are these rituals in the rules? What are the stat blocks for these spirits? How does one communicate with them? Why aren't they everywhere?

Where's the crunch, man?

 

[Garthanos]

What I mean is, where are these rituals in the rules?

Are there even castle building rules? Crunch is for players not game world simulation what do you think this is 3e? If my players are building a castle they will find the high level priest has it tadah.

What are the stat blocks for these spirits? How does one communicate with them? Why aren't they everywhere?

Do your players attack a lot of peasants homes inquiring minds want to know..

5e is pretty sparse on material

 

[pemerton]

Why is it that archers in hard to reach places, or difficult/dangerous terrain, or invisible opponents, is considered good fun, not "DM against Melee", but anything intended to challenge the casters is "DM against Wizards". There really are so many options for challenging wizards, but people in this thread seem to think that using them is adversarial.

Again, no wonder wizards seem OP to some people.

In addition to the replies you've had, I have this thought:

A combat between a PC melee fighter and an invisible opponent, or an archer who is hard to reach, still has the player of the fighter engaging the combat rules - taking turns, declaring actions, etc. The exception would be a melee fighter against a flying archer or similar sort of foe - which I think would often be seen as adversarial!

When the GM has a NPC or trap or whatever cancel the wizard's spell, on the other hand, the wizard player doesn't get to keep playing the game. Their move has been negated.

This is a result of the different methods that 5e D&D (following in the tradition of classic D&D and 3E) uses to resolve combat and spell casting.

 

[Bill Zebub]

If you're an ordinary humanoid in a fantasy world, you can sit back and think of ways to stop things a mundane person can do. To stop things a magic user can do, however, requires knowledge of what a spellcaster is capable of.

Given the depth of spell lists, knowing that with any degree of certainty will be insanely difficult without extensive education and experience. Even if you've seen a Leomund's Indispensable Bivouac in action, do you know the exact limitations? Do you know if it has a floor, or how indestructible it is? Do you know how long it lasts, and other minute details? Only if you can cast it yourself, since you would need more than a brief encounter to know what you were dealing with. And let's not forget, most people who encounter adventurers die.

So for your campaign to have any kind of scenarios designed to deal with casters requires casters to be commonplace enough that their capabilities are fully understood. If your campaign is higher magic and spellcasters are everywhere, this makes perfect sense.

But often, in these sorts of discussions, you'll encounter people who consider their games to be lower to moderate magic. They don't want fantastic elements, preferring a more gritty "realistic" fantasy world without flying castles or teleport gates between cities, or golem city guards (things that a preponderance of casters would make possible).

In such a world, then, a lot of these "countermeasures" stand out because it's harder to imagine who has the detailed knowledge to conceive of or construct such things. The thing you're dealing with is communication- in our world, if someone has a cool idea, it can spread like wildfire.

In a world where travel distances matter, and you need riders on horseback or carrier pigeons to send messages, if one guy has a cool idea, it may be that only a few people ever hear about it. So even if a canny person creates countermeasures to one spell, it's very likely that it's going to be a one-off at best.

And even if a spellcaster figures out anti-spellcaster tech, you think he's going to just run around telling people how to beat his magic? Not very likely!

Farmers cottages, no. Castles, yes.

Or not, and let Wizards be all that. It’s a simple equation.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Then they are... in game world household spirits who help protect houses just by being bribed and priest rituals that protect castles blocking teleport since that was the example. Not sure why you assume these are not?

I think in practice, that doesn’t work in many cases for various reasons.

1. Yes, at high levels you are more likely to interact with king’s castles and the like that have the resources to defend their castles against magic. But you never stop interacting with people who don’t have those resources. So, maybe the old hermit in the woods has information you need to save the king. He’s not a high-level druid, just obnoxious. There are a large number of magic ways to help get this information, even if you don’t necessarily have the skills to back them up.

2. For a large number of monsters, those types of defenses aren’t really on brand. A purple worm isn’t going to entreat nature spirits or make deals with clerics. Many chromatic dragons are notoriously paranoid and don’t play well with the sort of spellcasters that could prevent teleporting.

3. Magic is so broad that it is difficult to defend against all types of magic. Sure, you prevent teleportation, but what about etherealness? What about Disguise Self? What about Charm person?

 

[Gammadoodler]

And even if a spellcaster figures out anti-spellcaster tech, you think he's going to just run around telling people how to beat his magic? Not very likely!

You never trust the 'Defense against the Dark Arts' teacher.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

I think just knowledge on spells isn't hard to justify, Lizard McWizard wrote the best selling book "Fantastic Spells and How to Counter Them" 100 years ago, and it became mandatory reading for all children in the nation's schools.

I do think the average person should know more about magic than most settings go with, if someone can control your mind or kill you with a word, you'd want to know how that works out exactly.

 

[James Gasik]

Are there even castle building rules? Crunch is for players not game world simulation what do you think this is 3e? If my players are building a castle they will find the high level priest has it tadah.

Do your players attack a lot of peasants homes inquiring minds want to know..

5e is pretty sparse on material

If you're going to add a rules element to the game, there has to be rules for it. Maybe 5e is lacking ways to build castles, but if I'm a character in a world and I encounter something commonly used, I'd want to know how it works, and to see if I can use it to my benefit. Or find ways to exploit or circumvent it.

Just saying "oh there's this thing that prevents magic and it doesn't need rules" isn't how I like to play.