D&D 5E Are you happy with the Battlemaster and Fighter Maneuvers? Other discussions as well.

[Salamandyr]

Anybody can do magic though. Take a level in a spellcasting class. Or take the appropriate feat. Done.


It's funny, because there is a rule that only Bards can sing ... and have it rally/inspire their allies. The Bard is actually a perfect example, in my mind, of why Fighter-specific maneuvers make total sense in D&D's class-based system.

I think the problem is that you're discounting how much training and athleticism should be required to perform all the jazzy fighting techniques that set a trained warrior - a Fighter, a martial artist - apart from regular adventurers who simply hit things with weapons. And not taking into consideration what sorts of phenomenal techniques someone who devotes their lives to their training and weapon skill should possess.

I agree that stuff like "push a guy a little bit" is hardly a showcase of martial talent, no more so than "hit a guy" or "hit a guy pretty hard." A trained martial artist should be able to do a whole lot more than that. Anyone can "bash guy in face with shield," but only a trained member of the Iron Bulwark school can use the Snapping Turtle Offense.

Members of other classes aren't highly-trained martial artists any more than a Fighter is a highly-trained spellcaster.

No...I'm saying that another class with the same attack bonus is also a highly trained at jazzy fighting techniques. For instance a 10th level rogue is, through experience, a much better fighter than a 3rd level fighter, and ought to have a similar chance to pull of cool stunts. Every class learns how to fight. The amount of focus a class gives to it is different in degree, not in kind.

But it's moot, because it looks like I'm actually getting my wish. Anyone can do maneuvers, but the fighter can do them better, and perhaps combine them with doing damage, which is what I said I wanted.

So yay!

 

[Obryn]

No...I'm saying that another class with the same attack bonus is also a highly trained at jazzy fighting techniques. For instance a 10th level rogue is, through experience, a much better fighter than a 3rd level fighter, and ought to have a similar chance to pull of cool stunts. Every class learns how to fight. The amount of focus a class gives to it is different in degree, not in kind.

Sure, it's in kind. You need to be a Rogue to sneak attack, so clearly the Rogue has some specialized training that other classes (fighter included) lack. You need to be a Ranger to get kickin' rad with two-weapon fighting, so clearly the Ranger has some training that other classes lack. So clearly, other classes do have training that's different in kind.

While a Rogue 10 can certainly beat a Fighter 3 in a fight, since that's a function of level, they shouldn't be able to use a Fighter's techniques any more than a Fighter can sneak attack.

 

[Ahnehnois]

While a Rogue 10 can certainly beat a Fighter 3 in a fight, since that's a function of level, they shouldn't be able to use a Fighter's techniques any more than a Fighter can sneak attack.

A fighter should be able to sneak attack. As should an untrained commoner. Perhaps not as well as a rogue trained in skullduggery, but the lack of advantage for attacking targets who are unaware of you is bizarre.

As should anyone be able to do anything.

The one possible exception would be magic, if we take it that magic is not an exertion of skill. This seems to be an assumption that underlies all of D&D's magic. If casting a spell were simply a matter of saying the right words and waving one's hands the right way, anyone should be able to do it. Because this is not the case we can conclude that the spell really comes from some external source beyond the character's control (divinity, bloodline, pact, etc.), and that even an infinitely intelligent/wise/charismatic person with infinite knowledge of magic who perfectly renders a spell's components does not receive the effects unless he has the appropriate support (which is apparently represented by class levels).

The same is not true, however, of anything else. An infinitely dextrous person should be able to hide regardless of whether or not he is a rogue, an infinitely strong person should be able to deal damage regardless of whether or not he is a fighter, and an infinitely skilled person should be able to accomplish anything that can be accomplished through skill.

I'd much rather see a D&D that breaks further into the assumption above and gives us ways of adjudicating magic usage by the uninitiated than one that reverts back to the old school mentality of a class as a list of things you can't do because they're the property of some other class.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

what I want is a 10th level rogue to be as good or better of a combatant then a 3rd level fighter... but I also want a 10th level fighter to be much better then a 10th level rogue... and I would HATE if the best of them was a fighter 3/rogue 7...

 

[Obryn]

I'd much rather see a D&D that breaks further into the assumption above and gives us ways of adjudicating magic usage by the uninitiated than one that reverts back to the old school mentality of a class as a list of things you can't do because they're the property of some other class.

I think it's clear, in the D&D implied setting, that casting a spell really isn't all that hard. Go kill some goblins, come back home, suddenly cast Sleep. Easy peasy.

However, if you're not restricting mechanics based on classes, then why have classes at all? Go whole hog and play GURPS or HERO.

 

[Ahnehnois]

However, if you're not restricting mechanics based on classes, then why have classes at all?

Speed of character creation, accessibility for people who aren't rules experts, and tradition. Those are pretty much the reasons for classes these days; think of them what you will.

I think it's clear, in the D&D implied setting, that casting a spell really isn't all that hard. Go kill some goblins, come back home, suddenly cast Sleep. Easy peasy.

Well, that really varies by edition. In 2e, you're relatively locked into your initial class choice, so no, unless you start talking dual classing.

In 3e, if you really want to, anyone can take UMD and start using scrolls, which is pretty much the same as actually casting the spells (in 3.5 specifically; in 3.0 UMD was an exclusive skill). A commoner could do it now (though he wouldn't likely be able to afford the scrolls). I don't recall a lot of cries about how the UMD characters stole the magicians' niche.

In 4e you have this weird contradictory situation where there are many things that are locked into class-exclusive powers and multiclassing is very restricted, but nonmagical skills and magical rituals are more independent of class than before.

 

[Nagol]

Speed of character creation, accessibility for people who aren't rules experts, and tradition. Those are pretty much the reasons for classes these days; think of them what you will.

Well, that really varies by edition. In 2e, you're relatively locked into your initial class choice, so no, unless you start talking dual classing.

In 3e, if you really want to, anyone can take UMD and start using scrolls, which is pretty much the same as actually casting the spells (in 3.5 specifically; in 3.0 UMD was an exclusive skill). A commoner could do it now (though he wouldn't likely be able to afford the scrolls). I don't recall a lot of cries about how the UMD characters stole the magicians' niche.

In 4e you have this weird contradictory situation where there are many things that are locked into class-exclusive powers and multiclassing is very restricted, but nonmagical skills and magical rituals are more independent of class than before.

UMD can allow scroll use... with great difficulty.

1) You still need Read Magic or some other way to decipher the scroll. You can use UMD for the deciphering, but the DC is 25 + spell level and takes a full minute.
2) The first UMD check is 20 + caster level to place the spell on your spell list.
3) A second UMD check is necessary if you don't have the necessary stat minimum to cast the spell. That check means you need to roll a UMD of 15 + minimum stat (so DC 26 - 34 for 11-19 stat).

So to use a scroll of Cure Light Wounds written as 3rd caster level, the UMD specialist needs a full minute and a successful DC 26 check followed by a DC 23 check, followed by DC 26 check. Any failure result of with a roll of 1 prevents further attempts for the day.

It's not too likely a UMD specialist will step on too many similarly leveled caster toes.

 

[Ahnehnois]

It's not too likely a UMD specialist will step on too many similarly leveled caster toes.

Exactly. Nor is it likely that a spellcaster would step on a fighter's toes simply by having the same retinue of combat actions. Separate, exclusive subsystems to enforce these niches are unnecessary.

 

[Minigiant]

D&D has slowly evolved the idea of a class being "what you can do" to "what you are an expert at"'

It is becoming more like a priority choosing system. Anyone can learn a little of X but if you really want to use X to solve a major obstacle, you want to be a member of the Y class. Any one can disarm but if you really really REALLY need to disarm someone or a lot of someones, you better be a fighter.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

UMD can allow scroll use... with great difficulty.

1) You still need Read Magic or some other way to decipher the scroll. You can use UMD for the deciphering, but the DC is 25 + spell level and takes a full minute.
2) The first UMD check is 20 + caster level to place the spell on your spell list.
3) A second UMD check is necessary if you don't have the necessary stat minimum to cast the spell. That check means you need to roll a UMD of 15 + minimum stat (so DC 26 - 34 for 11-19 stat).

So to use a scroll of Cure Light Wounds written as 3rd caster level, the UMD specialist needs a full minute and a successful DC 26 check followed by a DC 23 check, followed by DC 26 check. Any failure result of with a roll of 1 prevents further attempts for the day.

It's not too likely a UMD specialist will step on too many similarly leveled caster toes.

Well I can tell you this, we had a rogue in 3.5 who maxed out his UMD and took the feats Magic Device Attunement and Dual Wand Wielder. After that, we no longer needed a wizard because he could do what ever we needed done.