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[Ari Marmell's blog] To House Rule or Not to House Rule

That was a well written post and a good analysis of the theoretical framework behind the direction DnD has taken I think... the drive for players to houserule and the drive for the developers to make new versions (and new games) are both caused by the disconnect you eloquently described at stage 1.

But I think where your theory breaks down is the idea that we can get to stage 3 from stage 2. I think stage 2 is a dead end.
It's not, and 'balance' remains a bad boogieman. All "balance" does is remove one specific kind of frustration.

You may have other frustrations with 4e -- my group has been taking a break from D&D ever since we hit Paragon tier -- but I suspect 'balance' isn't the source of your frustration. I guess it's some kind of "geek chic" to hate balance, though? Whatever, I've never been one for fashion trends.

You are much more limited to a very specific type of (ultra) high-fantasy / high magic game.
Mmm. There have been explicit options for playing without any magic items since day 1, if I recall correctly, and now those options are well documented in the DMG2 or 3, and supported by the character builder.

4e is easier to modify than 3e was, because in 4e the assumptions are laid bare, while in 3e they were implicit -- and in earlier editions they were impossible to discern, so far as I could tell.

In 4e, one can easily remove a power source entire (e.g. "no Divine magic on the world of Purghuthush!") and everything still works.

4e even makes it trivially easy to run "e6" games, by dividing things into Tiers. If you want a low-fantasy game, simply limit the PC levels to Heroic Tier.

4e can be a good toolbox. Many of the same tools have been extracted from the implicit assumptions which underlie 3.x, and you can see quite a few of them laid bare in Trailblazer. With that product, one can probably modify 3.5e as easily as one can modify 4e.

If you will forgive a crass political allegory, I'm reminded of a quote by Martin Buber back in the 19th Century, in critique of Karl Marx "One cannot in the nature of things expect a little tree that has been turned into a club to put forth leaves." I think D&D has entered the 'Dictatorship of the Balancariat*" and you will find that it is not, as promised a "transitional phase". It is perpetual (until the collapse).
If you don't mind a crass political counter-argument -- and we ought to keep these minimal, site policy & all that -- it was the Marxian state which collapsed, rather than the one he railed against.

Now days you have to be deeply immersed in gamer-geek or MMORPG subculture to understand even the basic concepts of the game. 4E may be a fine niche game for people who like that particular style, but the elements in 4E don't exist in history or in any literary or cinematic genre I have any interest in.
This is simply untrue, and I'm a living counter example. I've never played an MMORPG, and I don't use their lingo, but I can handle 4e concepts pretty darn well -- and I'm NOT alone in that regard.

the DM and the industry game writers like mousferatu can quit worrying so much about game mechanics and explore the limitless possibilities of making fun adventures
"... the mechanic and the auto manufacturers like Maserati can quit worrying so much about auto mechanics and explore the limitless possibilities of making fun cars"

Good mechanics are a vital part of a good adventure, just like they are a vital part of a good car. Of course they're not the only thing, but you'd be a fool to throw them away.

Cheers, -- N
 

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Though I can only speak from my own groups' experiences, I find that the only house rules we use less are those addressing some imbalance in the system (mostly because we feel that 4e is a pretty solid system to start with). We still utilize house ruled races, items and even classes, as well as rules designed to evoke a certain flavor.

Despite our use of significant HRs, we make use of the CB most of the time when designing characters. The way it sorts feats and powers makes it a significant time saver in contrast to poring through a half dozen books. We tend to prefer hand written character sheets to the CB format anyway, so we primarily just use the Builder for putting the character together and then add any HR material to our sheets by hand afterward. That isn't to say that we wouldn't appreciate expanded HR functionality in the CB.

A major part of why I like 4e as much as I do is that it's taught me a lot about balanced design. Because I can see how the system interacts with itself, I find it much easier to do a quick "sanity check" regarding how balanced a given element will be. That isn't to say that I've never introduced unbalanced elements, but rather that (most of the time) I've done so knowingly and intentionally.

I agree that games that possess a certain unpredictability are fun. However, it's been my experience that when a game becomes too unbalanced, it usually crashes and burns. Premature campaign ending due to too much chaos is no more desirable than a campaign that is so predictable it's boring.

What I'm essentially getting at is that I think it's an oversight to assume that just because a system is well balanced, that you shouldn't introduce unbalancing factors. If anything, because the system is so transparent, it should be easier for the DM to anticipate the impact of the new element and prevent it from undesirable interactions that might render it too unbalancing. I think it's fine to embrace moderation and occasionally add reasonably unbalanced elements for the sake of fun. If it's adding more fun than it's taking away (not wrecking the campaign), it's a net gain which is a good thing.
 

I think Nifft's theory that this is a progression of stages is wrong, though as a description of different states or mindsets I think it's pretty interesting.

I've long disagreed with the notion that charop inhrently inhibits roleplaying, and I agree that it may enhance it. But I think it's a stretch to see it as some sort of evolutionary endpoint in the development of games or gamers.
Well, I've seen this progression happen a bunch of times with various posters over on the WotC forums, so I'm pretty sure it's not just in my imagination.

I've talked to more than one GM whose players all discovered the CharOp boards at once, and helped them through the transition of having stage 1 players who all suddenly jumped deep into stage 2.

You can contest my analogy with the gaming industry -- that's nothing more than an assumption, since there's hardly any stage 3 stuff yet -- but the basic description of how an optimist* evolves is pretty old, and has seen some scrutiny. If the WotC boards didn't suck I'd point you to the old discussions... :/ Anyway, I do welcome new scrutiny, especially if it's backed up by experience.

Cheers, -- N

*) "Optimist" is my preferred word for us.
 

I can sympathize with Ari. I was also in a "balance is all important" phase a few years ago, and boy, is it hard to break out of.

To me, balance is one of those bugaboo concepts that has some great positive uses and connotations, but carries with it problems all its own. Its a positive aspect for game design in that everyone at the table wants to have fun, but if one character is more powerful than others (whether due to a class, feat, spell, magic item, etc), it often leads to resentment and problems at the table. By controlling some of those options and keeping some wahoo ones reigned in, the game is better for everyone.

On the flipside, being worried about balance all the time does take a toll on creativity. There were several times when I was DMing 3e (which was the time I was most concerned with balance) that I had a cool idea for a spell, critter, magic item, or whatever- but I just couldn't quite figure out a way to make it work in system and be balanced. It was frustrating as hell.

For me, my balance revelation came about three years ago, while I was running a WHFRP2 game. Now, WHFRP2 wasn't the most balanced of games, and some PCs are more powerful than others, but there are also some mechanical and roleplaying hinderances to that power (chaos manifestations when using magic and people's attitude towards magic being the big two). Coming into the game, the players knew wizards were going to be powerful but that was also a steep price to be paid for that power. In contrast, D&D over the last 10 years has really tried to eliminate ALL negative consequences of magic and power, whether mechanical or roleplaying in nature (which I do think is a mistake). I've found if you're up-front with players about there being a cost for greater power, whether its mechanical or roleplaying in nature, they are usually ok with it, as long as they are aware of the repurcussions beforehand. Once players understand that, then the overriding concern with balance can be relaxed, and creativity can start flowing again.

My solution for my 4e campaign was to make arcane magic risky, and subject to spell failures on rolls of a 1, as well as having many people in the world suspicious of arcane casters. Warlocks don't tend to suffer spell failures quite as badly as wizards, sorcerers, bards, or swordmages do, but they are also beholden to other entities via their pact. Divine characters have more RP restrictions- they are subject to the dictates of their religion, with certain holy days they must observe, taboos to avoid, and divinely-granted visions their gods expect them to follow up on. Primal characters must commune with spirits for guidance and power, and can easily offend them by engaging in activities that are contrary to the desires of the spirits. The payoff? A houserule allowing all arcane, divine, and primal characters to use healing surges to deal extra damage with powers, or to immediately cast a ritual, or to manifest various non-statted, off-the-cuff game effects that would be cool in play (thematic or dramatic in nature mostly). Martial classes don't get those bonuses, but they also don't suffer the restrictions. When I told my players about this, they LOVED the idea, and have been just fine with some of the classes being a little mechanically unbalanced due to the costs associated with the power, as long as they know about it up front. The other nice thing is I didn't have to do a thing with the Character Builder to allow for this to work.

As a DM, I found that its best to not even think in terms of game stats, powers, etc., when designing monsters, encounters, and adventures. Come up with the idea first, then make the stats fit it relatively closely. If the ability or critter is a little overpowered, thats fine- PCs are usually much more resilient and adaptive than most DMs give them credit for, and can often deal with many situations that seem hopeless. And hey, if they can't, then running isn't a bad idea! :devil:

Now, Ari is in a slightly different place than most of us, in that he's writing professionally and submitting his work for public consumption. WotC does have an obligation to turn out quality material that won't wreck the game, and from what I've seen, Ari's 4e work has been the best I've seen from him. I'd say this to Ari- we're our own toughest critics, but you really have nothing to feel bad about. I personally think your recent stuff is your best, and is plenty creative. My advice to Ari would be this: take some chances and do some crazy stuff in your home game- just see what happens. As you get more comfortable with being "unbalanced", try some proposals to WotC and see if they bite. Who knows, you might be writing the 4e Unearthed Arcana! ;)
 

But you are missing the point. Whether you want to call the mechanics "magical" or not 4E is still a type of supernatural superhero world, a very very specific artificial genre which doesn't really relate to anything outside of the RPG / MMORPG / comic book subculture. It's not really compatible with any history, cinematic, literary or mythological genre outside of that.

In earlier versions of DnD perhaps you 'needed' a healer if you used the RAW, but per Mousferautus blog, you weren't as closely wedded to the RAW as you are now, which is why there was still room for so many other styles and contexts which did have some relation to the world outside of certain cliche fantasy RPG stereotypes.

G.

Sorry I don't buy it, and my current Sword & Sorcery Campaign based on the Ancient Greece doesn't buy it either.

I'm pretty sure Jason, Hercules, Perseus, Paris, and Achilles lived in a supernatural superhero world of their own. I have no problem integrating all of that and more into my game.

So maybe it's preconceptions that are causing the problem. You see 4e as a Manga Superhero game, I don't and don't treat it as such. So it works fine for me and my group.
 

At what point does allowing an "expansion" book or "official accessory" into your campaign become a "house rule"?

Umm never. It is a house rule to NOT allow any official, non-optional core rules. All the 4E PHB etc series are core, not required, but still officially in the game. Therefore not allowing your PCs to use them you are house ruling. Not the other way around.

Really. Well - I got some news. I've been down this road already and the vaunted "balance" in 3.5 was utterly wrecked by WotC's own designers as power creep destroyed the 3.5 game system.

So if "disallowing" an official accessory makes me someone who "House Rules" -- then I'm ALL for House Rules -- and never mind what Ari suggests (though to be fair, I think he was talking more about 1st and 2nd ed and that a more mature consensus has now emerged that acknowledges that there is a "balance" in the game that should be preserved).

Still - the problem remains in defining what is and isn't a House Rule when it comes to dealing with multi-volume system material.

If being "against" House Rules means that I have to permit every single official WotC accessory into my game...(according to WotC, you say). Well - at least the ones they call "core". Even if they aren't really... "core".

Hmm. That's a very convenient position for a publisher to take, don't you think?

Any chance there might be a wee bit of a conflict of interest there in WotC taking that position? Any chance at all?
 
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I think a big piece of the puzzle is that there are several different parts of "balance" and they are all independently optional.

1) Balance of overall contribution of class vs. class or PC vs PC within the party
2) Balance of encounter specific contribution of class vs. class or PC vs PC contribution within the party
3) Balance of predictability of the outcome of a conflict between two sides
4) Balance of the reliability of increasing or decreasing the potency of a threat or challenge (be it giving a dragon more HD or making the queen more resistant to diplomacy)

I'm sure there are others that just are not springing to mind at this second.

To me, #1 is very important. I'm a bit of a slave to that one. But I don't mind.

The others are all 100% out the window. It nice to be able to have a handle on things. And I really like having some insight into #3 and #4. And I have a good deal of it in my current game. But when all is said and done, the narrative is far more important to #3 and #4. They are the slaves.

But when debating the merits of "balance" it is important to try to keep the speaker's context in mind.
 

Really. Well - I got some news. I've been down this road already and the vaunted "balance" in 3.5 was utterly wrecked by WotC's own designers as power creep destroyed the 3.5 game system.
Yeah. Fortunately, I agree with you about optional material.


Any chance there might be a wee bit of a conflict of interest there in WotC taking that position? Any chance at all?
Heh. No. Perhaps you don't quite get what a conflict of interest is.
WotC has an interest in selling product. Wotc has no interest that conflicts with this.
It is self-serving. And it *may* be self-defeating if they turn off enough fans. But it is not a conflict of interests.
 

I think Nifft's theory that this is a progression of stages is wrong, though as a description of different states or mindsets I think it's pretty interesting.

Agreed.

I've long disagreed with the notion that charop inherently inhibits roleplaying, and I agree that it may enhance it. But I think it's a stretch to see it as some sort of evolutionary endpoint in the development of games or gamers.

I think charop (if I understand your term correctly) ideally should dovetail with roleplaying. if you have a game that is designed with some relation to either reality or a relatively rich cinematic or literary world you can avoid the disconnect.

G.
 


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