Armour Dilemma: Am I Wrong Here?

I'd like to be a player in Elvinis75's games. I'd always get what I wanted. I'd just complain that I wasn't having any fun and he'd bend over backwards to please me. :)

I'm just kidding Elvinis75, but to me your position seems a bit unreasonable.

If you've read the previous posts (I assume you have), then you know that the player in question who wasn't having fun has a history of misbehaving and complaining when things don't go his way.

Given this, how can you say that since this bad apple didn't have fun, fusangite's encounter was bad? If everyone]/b] said they didn't have fun, or if the majority of the gamers said they didn't have fun, then I'd agree with you, but to me you're putting way to much credence in the bad apple's experience.
 

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NPC said:
I'd like to be a player in Elvinis75's games. I'd always get what I wanted. I'd just complain that I wasn't having any fun and he'd bend over backwards to please me. :)

I'm just kidding Elvinis75, but to me your position seems a bit unreasonable.

If you've read the previous posts (I assume you have), then you know that the player in question who wasn't having fun has a history of misbehaving and complaining when things don't go his way.

Given this, how can you say that since this bad apple didn't have fun, fusangite's encounter was bad? If everyone]/b] said they didn't have fun, or if the majority of the gamers said they didn't have fun, then I'd agree with you, but to me you're putting way to much credence in the bad apple's experience.


You think the other two players without a history of bad behavior who also ended up sitting out the whole session had fun?

The fact that they didn't play indicates there was a massive failure to communicate, there... It's your job as a DM to address things like that, instead of just sitting on your ass, smugly saying "I don't care, they brought it on themselves."

I can't imagine playing in a game (regardless of whether I was one of the "problem" players or not) in which the DM is satisfied to let some of his players sit there for hours instead of acting like an adult and taking 15 minutes to try to straighten things out.
 
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Re: This will never end . . .

Numion said:
The difference being: I'll gladly make PCs pay the consequences - players not so easily. Even though the characters may suffer easily, it's not the point that players suffered through boring evenings. Even if that was a consequence of their action. In this instance players paid the consequence - not the PCs as you claimed in the quote above.

I guess I'm just of the opinion that the DM should be able to allow the players to choose whether or not to participate (and they had that choice, make no mistake), and to do so without others calling his DMing job poor. What you've suggested may very well be good DMing, but I don't think that doing otherwise is automatically bad DMing.

Actually, now that I think about it I realize that it's been said before, and possibly better:

NPC said:
Tsyr and mmu1 have basically admitted that they would fudge the rules for the betterment of the game, so that everyone has fun.

Fus follows the rules very closely, for better or for worse.

These two DMing philosophies will never meet. Both philosphies are valid and can make for a great game.
 

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Numion said:


No, no and no. Thank you for missing the point. Once again let me re-iterate: I'm all for PCs getting the consequences. However having players bored because their PCs miss the action is just wasting everyones time.

Haha. I'm missing your point like I miss my alcoholic sister from Oklahoma. I know it's a stretch but stick with me.

If players choose to fold the hand they're dealt because it isn't a straight flush then they forfeit the right to whine while the brave guy across the table bluffs on through with his pair (and I think you know what I mean by pair).

I mean, if I had a DM like you it would be simple to manipulate the game in the name of party solidarity and fun and all that.

Numion said:

I don't assume anything other than that the players and the DM would've wanted all the PCs to be part of the climatic scene. This I assume from the fact that they all showed up to play the game.

Like 372 people have already mentioned, they were perfectly capable of participating. Did the casters refuse to participate because they hadn't rested 8 hours and regained all their spell slots?

Numion said:

Now I've offered solutions towards that end, but all I've heard in return is something about "this was a lesson!", "the players should pay the consequences!" and "fusangite was right". All fine opinions, off course, but I just find it more intresting to seek a solution instead off the guilty one.

Well, I dunno bout the lesson bit, but when players make bad choices my first instinct is not necessarily to curtail the difficulty of the odds they face (i.e. compensate them for their horrid decision). I assume that it's quite possible for the vampires to have overrun the whole city, at which point that armor's gonna do you a whole lotta good aint it?

If having fun and being kept in the game means never having to make tough choices, then screw that game. It's D&D not Candyland.

I have no idea what that last sentence of yours means.

Numion said:

And where did you get the idea I was trying to make the encounter easier? I was just trying to get all the PCs to the encounter, I said nothing about difficulty.

Err, sorry to confuse your wanting-to-reward-their-lack-of-preparation-by-letting-them-put-their-super-duper-armor-on-in-record-time with making the encounter easier?
 
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Wayside said:
I mean, if I had a DM like you it would be simple to manipulate the game in the name of party solidarity and fun and all that.

You're the second person to say this. You're the second person to be wrong, at least for me. And I assume what I'm about to say goes for Num too.

I'm not stupid. I'm not foolish. It's not that easy to pull the wool over my eyes.

In short, I'm not easy to manipulate, despite your claims. There is a difference between "Having fun" and "Always getting your way."
 

You think the other two players without a history of bad behavior who also ended up sitting out the whole session had fun?

Actually, the player who plays the paladin did have fun and was supportive of the scene. The party has had a history of marching into battle and sometimes, when the going gets tough, leaving him stuck in melee while they all turn invisible, retreat or engage in other actions of dubious tactical utility that place him exclusively in harm's way. He appreciated the irony of having the roles reversed for an episode and hang back while the other characters put their necks on the line.

He had in fact calculated that his ride skill was so good that he could have ridden into combat on his griffin with a comparable armour class to if he had put his armour on. Now, im my view, his conduct was inappropriate for a paladin but the player, at least according to his own account, gain some enjoyment from bagging a bunch of experience from things he didn't kill, given how much experience the other players had bagged from monsters he'd killed in the past.

The other thing is that our gaming sessions tend to be very social; plus, we model the combat using lego so those not in the combat action (and indeed those who were waiting to take their turn in the round) were able to have an enjoyable social evening.

As for the other player, he stayed behind after the game and apologized for sitting out the combat. I explained to him that there was no need for him to apologize and that the game was not about everyone always having to do the same thing. Nonetheless, he felt (correctly) that he'd made the wrong decision. He'd also failed to properly calculate his unarmoured movement rate and had based his decision, partly, on a miscalculation of how long it would take him to arrive at the battle.

The fact that they didn't play indicates there was a massive failure to communicate, there... It's your job as a DM to address things like that, instead of just sitting on your ass, smugly saying "I don't care, they brought it on themselves."

I entitled this thread "Am I Wrong?"; how is that smug?

Initially, I wasn't at all sure that I'd done the right thing but thanks to the support I've received from the majority of respondents, I'm increasingly sure I did make the right decision. Another factor in my increasing certainty that I acted correctly is the quality of the arguments people have put forward to suggest I didn't act correctly. Most of these arguments are premised on an understanding of the rules that is incompatible with both me and the majority of my players.

The other arguments are:

Numion's:
My solution: Have the Dukes coming to his senses take the same time as the donning of the armours. At the same time the explosion happened to damage the entrances to the tower so that the victims could be loaded as quick inside.
PCs arrive about the same time at the scene. If there were a couple of the PCs tackling the vamps before the others got there, they'd get whats coming. I'm all for punishing PCs, not players

So, the alternative is to have things go pretty well the same way except that
(a) a spellcaster of unknown origin would show up out of the blue and severely damage the entrances to the tower;
(b) the duke would refuse to come right away and would somehow detain the sorceror who had come to seek his aid as well;
(c) the vampires would become more focused on killing the heroic characters and assault them until they either died or were forced to retreat, largely abandoning their original project of turning the city guard.
Even if these things happened, all that would change is that there would four characters out of the action instead of three and the bard, mage and rogue would be more likely to die trying to save others' lives.

mmu1 and Tsyr's:
I'd have most likely ruled that the time it'd take some of the characters to figure out what was going on, decide what to do, talk to the Duke, etc. would have been sufficient to put on the armor using the "don hastily" rules - if they insisted on taking enough time to get it on without suffering penalties for taking shortcuts, I'd have started the combat without them. After all, the explosion waking everyone up is just a contrived hole in the Vampires' otherwise perfect plan designed to let players get involved - if you're doing that, talking about sticking to the plan is kind of pointless...

There are problems here too:
(a) The time to don full plate is identical to the time it takes to don it hastily.
(b) As far as I understand it, you're suggesting that I tell people they cannot act during rounds of my choosing on the grounds that they're busy thinking; this seems like an insane way to treat people who come up with good tactical ideas: "That idea is too good. I'm going to paralyze you for two rounds because that's how long it would have taken you to think of it."

I can't imagine playing in a game (regardless of whether I was one of the "problem" players or not) in which the DM is satisfied to let some of his players sit there for hours instead of acting like an adult and taking 15 minutes to try to straighten things out.

What would you have suggested I say? Should I have said to the armoured tanks, "You're not allowed to sit this combat out"? Should I have said to the courageous and valiant characters, "You have to wait for the armoured guys while people die." Should I have cast a sleep spell over the whole city (except the characters' mansion) so the vampires no longer needed to complete their attack in a short time?
 
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the argument that characters should take the amount of time in-game that the players take out-of-game planning isnt a very good one.

I normally allow some metagaming, and suspended-time planning, because it evens out the players vs. the dm.

For example:

The Gm knows whats going on.
The Gm spent x hours planning.


The party has x heads to put together
The party can plan a bit, while little if any time passes in the game.

Tends to even things out.
 

Fusangite:

Yeah, you're the epitome of humble... Doing a percentage count of people that agree with you, saying that proves you're right, and using that to say you're "basically not buying what those others people are saying", if I'm paraphrasing that correctly.

It was already pointed out what you've done wrong... Ever hear of DM discretion? If the players arrive at the scene of a battle, take the time to get an accurate description, decide what they're going to do, and then act on it, there's nothing in the rules that states you can't say "Ok, that took you guys about 30 seconds, get to it." Just as you can simply decide it took no time at all, but only one approach will result in something remotely mirroring reality... (Oops, I mentioned reality again. Sorry... I'll go write Rulz are Rulz 100 times...) Which is what those rules are trying to accomplish, despite the fact that some people think they're there for their own sake.

As far as people just sitting there for hours... Yes, you screwed the pooch. The people just sitting on their butts are of course to blame, but so are you.

What were you supposed to say? How about "Look, you guys are just sitting there, you're not having much fun, everyone else is getting irritated, let's deal with this maturely and find some way to get the session going so that everyone can play, and afterwards, we can talk about it and get this whole thing ironed out.", instead of inviting people to your house to just sit and do nothing, and only deal with the whole thing after the game was already long messed up.

And please, please stop talking about how we can't possibly expect you to make changes to the vampires' plan to accomodate the players... You already said you intentionally weakened the vampires by having them expend most of their high-level spells, and you allowed them to alert the players with an explosion so they could get in on the action (which, if they were smart, they'd not have done...), then you "took mercy" on them by getting the duke in quickly. In other words, this was a typical D&D encounter, not some fool-proof plan handed down from on high, ran according to rules set in adamantite.
 
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La Bete said:
the argument that characters should take the amount of time in-game that the players take out-of-game planning isnt a very good one.

I normally allow some metagaming, and suspended-time planning, because it evens out the players vs. the dm.

For example:

The Gm knows whats going on.
The Gm spent x hours planning.


The party has x heads to put together
The party can plan a bit, while little if any time passes in the game.

Tends to even things out.

Which is something no one suggested... The characters would have certain advantages, like being able to actually see what's going on, instead of needing to have things explained to them, so it'd be idiotic to say they stand in place for a couple of minutes taking in the view... On the other hand, if the players spend 10 minutes talking and planning tactics, saying that it's probably going to take 30 seconds or a minute of game-time is perfectly fine...
 

Well, I waded my way through the entire thread - boy was that a challenge in its own right! :)

As has been previously commented, this discussion is predicated on at least two different DMing styles. I think fusangite has received affirmation from those who share his style that he has got his session aright: he applied the rules fairly as he saw them, and the consequences that flowed therefrom were just desserts.

Others, notably mmu1, Numion and Tsyr, are of a different school of gaming, and they prefer to see the rules as a framework to help them run adventures. Consequently, they are happy to flex rules to make the story better from their own and their palyers' perspectives.

I'll put my cards on the table and say that I come from the same line of school of play as Numion et al, so my perspective is coloured thereby. My feeling is that when running such an event I would not start counting off in combat time from the explosion. I'd treat time as far more fluid until I had to deal with combat-related action. As such, I would treat actions such as adjudging the situation and discussing matters with the Duke as taking far more time than a strict 'round-by-round' count would indicate. To me verisimilitude would demand a little more explanation with the Duke (and probably the man getting independent confirmation of events). I also know from personal experience that in panic situations large crowds rarely behave conformly, so I'd have had more milling about, begging and panicking time. In other words, I would have regarded the rules and simple calculation to be insufficient to determine these events, and thus would have a lot more elasticity in events.

I know that some of you regard this as mollycoddling the players. I will say that that is from your perspective, one which focusses more on the 'gaming' aspect of D&D. I assure you that my own approach does not preclude making PCs deal with consequences - it just frames those consequences differently.

Ah well, one of the things I enjoy about role-playing games generally is that they allow for a very flexible approach to play. This event in fusangite's game merely emphasises that all the players and the DM need to understand the others' approaches to the game, and finds them compatible. Otherwise someone (and often the entire group) finds themselves unhappy and wasting time.
 

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