Armour Dilemma: Am I Wrong Here?

[fusangite]

I was actually bamboozled on the armour thing; I had looked up the time it takes to don aromour prior to the adventure and had remembered it as 40 rounds but towards the end of the night, the common law spouse of my tempermental player insisted that I was wrong and had misread the rules. I didn't want to heighten the emotional intensity of the situation as her significant other melted down so I decided to accept her "correction" of my recollection of the rules as I was only 85% sure I was absolutely correct.

When I checked the book after the game, I discovered I had been right all along but decided not to press the point having already accepted the "correction." I'm hoping that edition 3.5 will come out before this becomes an issue again and I can claim that whatever the new rule is arises out of Wizards' rules update and is not a function of last month's dispute.

But you're right: despite all my protestations to the contrary, I did, in the end, knock 15 rounds off the armour donning time due to extraordinary social pressure of the situation. I'm not especially proud of having fallen for this.

 

[The_Gneech]

This thread is harder to kill than the vampires were!

It's a little late to get in on the action now, but I'd like to point out a few things...

1) Fusangite did not resort to "NPC's save their bacon." One of the PC's went to get the Duke because he believed the other PC's would not come.

2) It has been stated, but it bears repeating: the players knew they were fighting vampires yet chose to sleep at night instead of being on guard. That, right there, is sufficient cause for just about any kind of smacking down the DM might want to deliver. Fusangite was, if anything, inordinately generous to his players.

3) "My problem is the abusive verbal outburst from one of them who told me that I had ruined his evening and wasted his valuable time by enforcing the armour donning rules and that by not allowing him to don his Full Plate instantaneously, I had decided not to let him play. He insisted that I was a lousy GM because a good GM would have 'let everybody play.' When I suggested that any time he wanted to stop putting on his armour, he could have participated, he became more abusive and stormed out." He was full of bantha pudu. Sometimes you have to fight at a disadvantage. Them's the breaks. The armor donning rules were not just tossed into the game for the heck of it -- they were written for a reason.

Short answer: Fusangite was right. Player was wrong. To "bend the rules to make it more fun" in this instance would have, essentially, been "hand over a big ol' GIMME just because I want it." And people think spellcasters are being nerfed as it is!

-The Gneech

 

[La Bete]

Short answer: Fusangite was right. Player was wrong. To "bend the rules to make it more fun" in this instance would have, essentially, been "hand over a big ol' GIMME just because I want it." And people think spellcasters are being nerfed as it is!

and there you have it. I suspect that If the player(s) had been less confontational about this, things may have proceeded differently.

 

[Elvinis75]

First off this is the last post and that doesn’t mean that I’m looking for the last word but I tired of this thread.
Second I was right on the armor:
From the SRD:
Don Hastily: This column records how long it takes to put the armor on in a hurry. Hastily donned armor has an armor check penalty and armor bonus each 1 point worse than normal.
Remove: This column records how long it takes to get the armor off.
Table: Donning Armor
Armor Type Don Don Hastily Remove
---------- --- ----------- ------
Padded, leather, hide, studded leather, or chain shirt 1 minute 5 rounds 1 minute*
Breastplate, scale mail, chainmail, banded mail, or splint mail 4 minutes* 1 minute 1 minute*
Half-plate or full plate 4 minutes** 4 minutes* 1d4+1 minutes*

I don’t thik that anyone assumed that they were going to take their time thus Don hastily is assumed. 4 minutes halved is 2 minutes or 20 rounds.



jdavis [/i]
Your right on the rounds.
Well they always play the same way, they are used to people knowing things through meta conversations, why would they even think to discuss things beforehand. They were talking during the game about stuff too, heck the four were apparently talking to the three while the situation was going on. I also don't think he was trying to totally control the flow of the game, he planned for two totally separate situations, he says he plans adventures of all types and tries to cater to all the characters likes and dislikes. It really sounds like he goes out of his way to entertain his players.

Fine they knew everything about everything right down to which spells the vampires had(sarcasm)(which I have no clue how they could have possibily known in the game using the rules). The vampires still IMHO played stupidly. They should have withdrawn after the players started rushing the scene. They weren’t ready to fight them and didn’t intend to fight them in a weakened state.

Why are you sad?

Because 70% of people are ok with putting choices to their PC that allow them to sit around for the majority of a session. Because instead of fusan getting good advice people just keep saying that you were 100% right. IMHO it is more like 80% and thus my attempts to give suggestions. Some of them taken in good spirit but most others work only to shoot them down. Don’t cuddle your PCs …etc. I'm always weary of people that tell me if 100% correct.

I don't see anything that stupid that the vampires did here, they planned on capturing and turning as many soldiers as possible to help them take over the city. They were not there to kill the PCs they were there to take over the city. They had knowledge ofhow the PCs would react, because former PCs and NPCs were now vampires. They planned on the PCs wasting time with armor so they could complete their plan and fortify their position, the whole adventure was designed around a attack on the city not the PCs.

and that is the point I do they messed up with the lightning bolt and called the PCs right to them. In a weakened state no less. I’ll agree to disagree.

Play it safe and let 160 people die, play it safe and risk 160 vampires running around the city the next day. Play it safe and let the vampires fortify themselves and regain their strength. heck why didn't they just play it safe and leave the city? …

Well here you have a group that metagames and has had at least one character die and be turned to a vampire why would you expect them play out the interests of the character over the player? You people coming back to playing in character. PIC is not a requirement in a metagame. Meatgaming and PIC are like oil and water IMHO.
Are you going to tell me that a person with a 17 Int is going to go into a fight like this unprepared? It would have made sense to have a couple of scrolls. Saving the big spells incase something goes wrong.
I have said my peace. Have a good campaign fusan and as to the bad player if he acts up again I quote the immortal Bill Murry
“Scrap ‘em off claire!”

 

[jdavis]

Fine they knew everything about everything right down to which spells the vampires had(sarcasm)(which I have no clue how they could have possibily known in the game using the rules). The vampires still IMHO played stupidly. They should have withdrawn after the players started rushing the scene. They weren’t ready to fight them and didn’t intend to fight them in a weakened state.
[/B]

Well actually the Vampires had a plan and stuck to it and apparently came real close to pulling it off. They should of abbandoned everythi9ng of a plan they were 3/4 into pulling off succesfully just because it looked like there may be a problem?

Because 70% of people are ok with putting choices to their PC that allow them to sit around for the majority of a session. Because instead of fusan getting good advice people just keep saying that you were 100% right. IMHO it is more like 80% and thus my attempts to give suggestions. Some of them taken in good spirit but most others work only to shoot them down. Don’t cuddle your PCs …etc. I'm always weary of people that tell me if 100% correct.

It's not that anybody is saying that it is ok to have players sitting around, it's that in this one situation, in this one game in this one persons campaign this wasn't his fault. You are taking a broad overview look of people saying it's ok for players to sit, the point that I believe everybody is trying to make here is that in this one situation it was the guys fault to sit it out not the DMs. The point isn't that it's ok for players to sit all the time, the point is that it was the guys fault. The big point here is that it's not ok for a player to demand a rules change to cover for his character's actions. He sat once, it happens, I don't know about everybody elses games but in many games I have played in it has happened (particularly in games with a high amount of role playing). It was a rare event not a common event, and if it bothered the guy so much to sit he could of done without the armor and joined in.

and that is the point I do they messed up with the lightning bolt and called the PCs right to them. In a weakened state no less. I’ll agree to disagree.

It was pointed out already that the Vampires were fighting with the higher level guards there and that they were taking damage, for that matter maybe it was something the guards did to cause the explosion. We don't know who or what caused the explosion. We do know they were fighting there, we also know that they didn't plan on a perfect sneak attack they planned on gaining 4 minutes while the PCs piddled.

Well here you have a group that metagames and has had at least one character die and be turned to a vampire why would you expect them play out the interests of the character over the player? You people coming back to playing in character. PIC is not a requirement in a metagame. Meatgaming and PIC are like oil and water IMHO.

There is a huge difference in metagaming and allowing player conversations. Apparently they have sessions that are nothing but in depth role playing. You are assuming that because he said that he allows in game conversation that they are completly metagaming every single aspect of their game. Players talking among themselves is pretty common in the game, even where they are not supposed to use that information incharacter they do. Are you saying that your players are only allowed to talk incharacter during the game? That's why I said the lever example in the book wasn't the same thing, they are discussing things (for all we know incharacter) when their characters are not in the same room. That doesn't mean that they were not trying to play incharacter. A big thing here too is that even from a meta standpoint the Paladin should of been there, they have a code to live by, we don't who the clerics gods were but it's quite probable that they blew that too.

Are you going to tell me that a person with a 17 Int is going to go into a fight like this unprepared? It would have made sense to have a couple of scrolls. Saving the big spells incase something goes wrong.

Who was unprepared? THe clerics had all their spells laid out for a encounter with undead, they had weapons and magic items and shields and everything they needed except Plate Mail. Armor really isn't all that important here because they are clerics not fighters, they can make adjustments and use spells, they don't have to rush in hand to hand. They had every single thing they needed to fight this fight except for one thing. Yes they should of been better prepared, heck they should of been awake waiting at the tower, but once again how was this the DMs fault and if he changed the adventure to cover for their choices then why have them make choices in the first place? Do you think that a Paladin or a holy Cleric with a 17 Int would of not realized that he was risking 170 lives including those of his fellow adventurers by not getting there as quick as possible?

Or is it the Vampires who were supposed to be unprepared? They almost pulled it off, heck they actually won a victory here, they killed off a large portion of the city guard, and it was stated that these were not all the vampires, the leaders of this group were still out there. Don't vampires follow the orders of those who created them?

 

[fusangite]

I'm amazed this thread is still going. My mind boggles; 400 + posts, 6000+ views -- the insanity! That said, here's one more post:

I was casting my eye back over my other posts when I recalled another incident to which I had previously made reference: a situation which sort of prefigured this one in which some of the characters were petrified.

For those DMs who are concerned about never having characters unable to participate, how do you handle monsters which paralyze, petrify and otherwise incapacitate people?

 

[Elvinis75]

I'm amazed this thread is still going. My mind boggles; 400 + posts, 6000+ views -- the insanity! That said, here's one more post:

I was casting my eye back over my other posts when I recalled another incident to which I had previously made reference: a situation which sort of prefigured this one in which some of the characters were petrified.

For those DMs who are concerned about never having characters unable to participate, how do you handle monsters which paralyze, petrify and otherwise incapacitate people?

I said that I was done discussing the situation above and I am. So I'll keep this short. Sitting on the bench because your character fell in combat or something equivelent is part of the game. It will happen from time to time. Though it isn't guarenteed. The players accept it as a hazard of combat. They aren't happy when it happens but they aren't usually angry at the DM either.

So to answer your question how do I handle it. I ask them to help me with the battle to make it go faster thus limiting their down time and keeping them participating in the game. Keeping the players aware of who turn it is next. Further I don't allow more than 20 seconds per turn of deciding what the character is going to do. Combat is quick and thinking on your feet you are going to make quick dicisions. Most combats take 30 Minutes or less.

 

[jdavis]

I'm amazed this thread is still going. My mind boggles; 400 + posts, 6000+ views -- the insanity! That said, here's one more post:

I was casting my eye back over my other posts when I recalled another incident to which I had previously made reference: a situation which sort of prefigured this one in which some of the characters were petrified.

For those DMs who are concerned about never having characters unable to participate, how do you handle monsters which paralyze, petrify and otherwise incapacitate people?

The same can be said if a character dies and the players are nowhere near a temple and didn't have access to a resurrection spell. Do you force them to make a new character just so they can play or do you force them to wiat it out while they haul him back to town?

I'm sure it will be said that it's different, but the only real difference from the armor situation is that in the first situation the character had the choice of joining in any time he chose to, if he's petrified or dead he has to wait till something can be done about it. Either way you shouldn't change the rules for them, it's just that the arnor situation required a repeated choice by the player to sit out, the petrification thing may of just been a bad die roll or one bad decision.

 

[Elvinis75]

The same can be said if a character dies and the players are nowhere near a temple and didn't have access to a resurrection spell. Do you force them to make a new character just so they can play or do you force them to wiat it out while they haul him back to town?

I'm sure it will be said that it's different, but the only real difference from the armor situation is that in the first situation the character had the choice of joining in any time he chose to, if he's petrified or dead he has to wait till something can be done about it. Either way you shouldn't change the rules for them, it's just that the arnor situation required a repeated choice by the player to sit out, the petrification thing may of just been a bad die roll or one bad decision.

So Jdavis what is your solution to those situations?
Secondly what is with your icon, the more I look at it the more that I see it as a french fry container with a face on it. What is it?

 

[jdavis]

So Jdavis what is your solution to those situations?
Secondly what is with your icon, the more I look at it the more that I see it as a french fry container with a face on it. What is it?

Aqua Teen Hunger Force: http://www.adultswim.com/shows/athf/index.html


We go ahead with the game, we have been gaming for decades now, nobody sweats a hour or two of in game inactivity. The big thing is that we are all friends first and gamers second. Here I'll give you a example.

We were fighting a vampire (go figure) and in his lair he had a Death Tyrant Beholder (FR pg. 309) guarding his casket. They broke into the lair, fought off some spawn and kicked in the door to the room where the casket is. The halfling rogue gets hit by the Beholders finger of death ray in the first round, rolls a bad fortitude save and dies instantly. We are a hour and a half into a adventure that will take 4 sessions to finish, they are trying to rescue the daughter of the king's advisor, the nearest temple with a high enough level cleric is 2 weeks hard ride away, they only have mulitclass clerics in the party (2 levels cleric 9 levels of paladin, the other was 5 levels of wizard 4 levels of cleric, at the time).They figure that if they ride 2 weeks to the temple to get him raised, then ride 2 weeks back that the girl will be dead, or worse just something else for them to fight. They were not prepared for instant death (they had a ton of healing scrolls and potions but no raise dead or resurection). So they cut the character's head off and put him in a keg of brandy (so he wouldn't become a vampire, long story). The player sat it out. He stayed at the table and stayed involved with what was going on, he helped the DM with some stuff and he still had fun, his character was just dead. He got a promotion at work that caused him to miss two sessions and he came back to game with his character still in a brandy keg. It took over 2 hours into that part of it before he got resurected. He missed large parts of two sessions, but he never had any problems, it was just part of the game. (The Paladin insisted on getting some scrolls with resurection for the next adventure, the halfling still thought they would be too expensive, but then again he was a little tipsy.) This kind of stuff happens all the time, and with our game working around other peoples schedules, people miss quite often so they are used to not having a full party. We game because we are friends and enjoy hanging out with each other, just because his character blew a role doesn't mean he can't hang out with his friends. If we are all in the same room then we can still have fun, heck we have had people from out of town visit and set in (without a character) who still have lots of fun hanging out. We had a character rended into 4 pieces by a troll about a month ago, he missed the last 2 hours of the adventure but he even still sat at the table and still had a load of fun, we got into a big discussion on how to get him raised (different characters at 6th level, with no money) and he was right there in on it. He had as much fun (if not more) being dead. Our game is all about us getting together as friends, we tried to play years ago where you had to stay in character no matter what, heck we played where anything you said it was assumed that your character was saying it, that got real old real quick.

Some of the most fun sessions we have had in years were when the before mentioned halfling would go off on his own in the city. The other players got a kick out of just how much trouble he got into, they were not even involved but they sat there and had lots of fun just watching the action. (I game with several theater people, they tend to go a little overboard on role playing sometimes.) In the original armor story I doubt it would of bothered anybody I play with if they did just sit and watch the action, particularly if in game conversations were ok, they'd still have a heck of a time. Of course the group I play with would of never even considered putting on any armor (even if they had some time for it). They would of been in the thick of the fight wearing nightshirts, well except the halfling he would of taken 4 minutes to get his boots on then showed up and bragged about his great victory. Us having fun has to do with our attitude going into the game, if you want to have fun you can, even if your character is dead and shoved into a brandy keg. I can give tons of examples of where somebody's character wasn't involved for hours at a time and they still had fun (the halfling yelled I'm going for help one time and wasn't seen again till the next session, the whole party but two characters were taken out by 2 grey slaad, one died but he got three of the PCs, the other two PCs fought off the last one for over a hour while most opf the group sat there and watched.) This stuff isn't all that uncommon in our game and people still have plenty of fun, they want to have fun why would they give up and storm out?