D&D 5E Array v 4d6: Punishment? Or overlooked data

Ask Han Solo what he thinks of those million to one odds.
:)I think he doesn't believe in odds and hates when people quote them... :cool:



Balanced encounters means the invisible hand of god is stepping in to make things fair which really have no place being.
it's a game...

Generals don't try to square up their armies so they have a fair fight ahead of them, they try to eke out every possible advantage to crush their enemies.
it's a game
As they should do to PCs. So PCs should learn to run.
it's a game
If they always expect each encounter to be balanced, that's just reducing the game to combat as sport.
you know what a sport and D&D combat have in common... they are both games...
And combat is not a sport, it's dangerous and should be avoided at all costs if you want to live long.
unless you are playing a legendary hero... or really any tv show or book protagonist (well ones not written by martin)

What I see here is a philosophy of having your cake and wanting to eat it too. You want a glorious outcome from long odds, but want those odds to be fair (whaaat?), so that there's equality of opportunity for every participant.

that's pretty close to what I want... let me explain.

I want I good story and I want it to feel hard pressed and earned, but the secret is... I want the PCs to win...everytime. They don't, they win they loose, sometimes PCs die. But I am hopeing they pull it off everytime. I am disappointed when a PC dies (although I don't pull my punches) and happy when they win. I do my best to make every victory worth it...

That's not how warfare works, not in human history, and not in most fantasy.
it's a game it is as much in common with warfare as HE-MAN, or Yu-Gi-OH, or Batman, or Hercules the legendary Journey, or JEM....


Most of the time, the good guys are besieged by long odds and are the underdog.
that is pretty much how I start every campaign... but I still make sure they numbers balance so they can still win...

That's the classic trope that's also the most rewarding. It seems to me like you want the story benefits of the underdog vs favorite trope to be played out by even odds, fair fight maths. Actually not even. In 4th edition a "balanced" encounter was one that PCs were definitely expected to win most of the time, so in effect it's a lie. It's dishonest to call such skewed odds "balanced", because if they were 50-50, PCs would last at most a handful of battles. And that's not how it played out, and you know it.

2e, 2e w/ combat and tactics and skills and power, 3e, 3.5, pathfinder, 4e, 5e, rifts, deadlands, savage world, gurps... all of them I play the same way... and run the same way... I assume the PCs will win more often then not and am secretly chairleading that victory 99% of the time...

A 50-50 chance of winning in typical D&D battles, even once in a while, would be substantially increasing the difficulty of the game, even in 5th edition where PCs die more often (at low levels, at least). So if you mean by "balanced", an substantial increase of what the current monsters have over PCs, then that would be an improvement. But not in the sense that you think. Because the game is already mechanically way too easy. It's moderately harder to survive the lower levels than in 4th edition, but after level 5, PCs are next to unkillable.
now you see all of this is PC compaired to world...

Pc compare to PC is my issue of the thread... I don't want someone playing Merlin, and someone else stuck playing ron weasly.... or one person gets to be connan the barbarian and the other bobby the barbarian....
 

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True...but OTOH, I have run Str or Dex 12 melee characters in D&D going back to 1Ed, happily. It CAN be done.

To continue your analogy, there are all kinds of published adventures in which one or two- and no more- powerful artifacts is acquired by a party member. There is no subsequent balancing.

IME, the mere fact that someone else's PC has better stats or better gear doesn't affect MY fun to the negative. I LIKE having a powerful ally on my team.

The most frustrating kind of powerful ally is one whose player is a tactical moron. The kind who blows his ninth level spell slots on Chromatic Orb and Mass healing word, out of combat.

Le sigh.

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk 2
 


Funny enough, look at Star Wars. There's no major stat difference between Han and Luke. Does that make them cookie cutter characters? Would it be difficult to recreate Han, Luke, Leia and Chewie using point buy? I don't think so.

Using point buy certainly does not lead to straight jackets.
 

I find rolling more fun. You feel great when you roll well. When you do roll an 18, you feel exhilarated. As long as you use a system that ensures everyone's stats remain in a tight range, you don't get one player with far better stats than another. Many players like the chance for the amazing character as long as they don't have to play the pathetic character.
 

Last time my wife's dice acted up, she lined them up and drilled through one of them with a power drill while the others watched. Sometimes you have to set an example. It worked.

When I was in college, one of the players in our circle of friends (*sigh* a math major) made a habit of "storing" all of his dice out on his desk, according to what game they were meant to be played in, and what task they were meant to be used for, with the number he wanted to roll face down towards the table. His argument was that statistically speaking, since each side had the same probability of ending up face up, he was "using up" all the low rolls by keeping them out this way.

Oddly enough he changed majors during his sophomore year. Unfortunately, he became a medical doctor.
 

it's a game

Correction, it's a roleplaying game. You are supposed to play the character as if you are him. That's the whole point.

Now, to get back to your original question, what is wrong with balanced encounters?

They break immersion.

If players know each battle will be "balanced", it means they know they stand a good chance of winning since it's more or less guaranteed that it's a straight-up, fair fight. But why should monsters or PCs fight fair, if they want to win? (and live!). Han Solo doesn't fight fair. Darth Vader doesn't either. There is place for Luke and Han in the same universe. Don't make every battle "Luke", in other words two-dimensional.

Monsters should flee and come back when PCs are sleeping and slit their throats, or lock the door to that dungeon room then flip the lever to let the water in and drown them. Those things are not "balanced" in the sense of fair, straight up fights.

The fact that players know you are making encounters they can win, tips your hand.

It breaks immersion, because fairness is something humans try to impose on the world, not something inherent in any remotely reasonable approximation of a fictional world which might indeed plausibly exist. An implausible "fair" world is unbelievable, on its face. It's fake.

A DM shouldn't impose a will to make a fair playground for PCs to level up in, in my opinion.

Players should pick their battles according to which they think they stand a chance of winning. It's not the DM's job to do that. If I had a bunch of 1st level PCs try to attack that group of ogres over there head on, I would let the dice and the rules slaughter them mercilessly. Maybe next time they will know, Ogres = tough. Lots of ogres = we dead. Don't do that again. Lesson learned. Your DM isn't your golden parachute to bail you out of every mess you jump head first into, he's an impartial observer.

By presupposing every fight is balanced, you restrict the wide variety of experience the game can create needlessly. You inflate casual skirmishes to boost up enemy ranks, or make some of those ogres leave. Why? Let players attack when they have overwhelming odds and a great chance of winning (smart game play, it's a game, right? So let them play. And learn by failing), and avoid battles where there is a substantial risk of death or loss. That's pretty obvious.

Balanced encounters are the bane of immersion, they are a terrible invention if you want to maintain player focus and the illusion of an independently existing and populated world, full of mystery and danger and excitement. Balance is the opposite of danger, it's forcing a level of fairness on battles which doesn't belong there.

you know what a sport and D&D combat have in common... they are both games...

D&D is not a sport. But even sports have rules, and you aren't supposed to cheat to make sure one side wins every time.

And yes, D&D is a game. A roleplaying game. Meaning immersion and the suspension of disbelief not only matter, they are actually of central importance. Reducing D&D combat to a sports contest trivialized any danger it might have. Which is not only bad for immersion, I don't think it's fun to play a game I know I'm going to win every time. It's like playing chess with your kid sister. Winning every time, yay. So exciting. I can't wait to see the surprise in store for next time I play. Oh wait, I won, again?

unless you are playing a legendary hero... or really any tv show or book protagonist (well ones not written by martin)

Early D&D was very much closer to Martin than Tolkien in effect. Players are not guaranteed to become heroes with the invisible hand of The Author ensuring them safe passage back from the slopes of Mount Doom. The dice are there to make sure the outcome of the game is uncertain, even a total loss is a distinct possibility. That's what makes D&D great.

Combat as sport trivializes battle and only comes about in games where it's difficult to die, to the point that every possible chance for battle will be taken, again, since players know they're supposed to be "balanced" in other words winnable in a straight fight. Those two things go hand in hand, and both contribute to wrecking immersion, the feeling of danger, and thereby the sense of actual accomplishment and the thrill of victory.

that's pretty close to what I want... let me explain.

I want I good story and I want it to feel hard pressed and earned, but the secret is... I want the PCs to win...everytime. They don't, they win they loose, sometimes PCs die. But I am hopeing they pull it off everytime. I am disappointed when a PC dies (although I don't pull my punches) and happy when they win. I do my best to make every victory worth it...


it's a game it is as much in common with warfare as HE-MAN, or Yu-Gi-OH, or Batman, or Hercules the legendary Journey, or JEM....

that is pretty much how I start every campaign... but I still make sure they numbers balance so they can still win...

There is no real difference between making sure the maths work out so the players always win statistically, and just playing a story game without dice. You are removing the agency of dice from the game, silencing their voice. If the maths are manipulated behind the scenes so every battle is an expected win, players won't think of running, they won't try to think of other ways to win than fighting, or of avoiding battle at all. You are actually restricting gameplay, since players see combat as sport, and are sportsmen (and women), and those games are fixed.

It's funny that on the one hand you see nothing wrong with combat as sport, but on the other hand, you admit that you skew the math so the outcome is favorable. This is the D&D equivalent of deflating the monster's balls (although that does, sometimes, literally happen. Ha).

2e, 2e w/ combat and tactics and skills and power, 3e, 3.5, pathfinder, 4e, 5e, rifts, deadlands, savage world, gurps... all of them I play the same way... and run the same way... I assume the PCs will win more often then not and am secretly chairleading that victory 99% of the time...

When players know that, they lose fear of the world, and that destroys immersion and suspense. How can there be suspense when the dice don't matter? Where is the thrill, the surprise in that? You are playing a game of D&D that is founded on dice, and it seems to me like you don't actually want the dice to have any real significance to the outcome of the plot. Or if they do, you want to minimize it to such an extent that you might as well be playing a diceless game.

Conan is a great example. If one person in your group rolls Conan stats, does that preclude you adventuring with them? Maybe Conan is indeed the 18 18 18 8 8 8 min maxer's dreamboat, so what? That still leaves plenty of place in the game for a voice or reason, for a magician to guide his uncouth ways, or to help him sneak into the palace. I seem to remember every one of his movies he had allies that weren't as tough as he was, but they still contributed and shored up his weaknesses. If I was in a party with such a person, and I was playing a wizard with a 14 int, that's still a huge improvement.

Even making a second warrior, a dex-based one, with a 14 in dex, could at first level still have the same to-hit as Conan does, with his three natural 18s in the physical stats. As I wrote before, you pick a human variant, with archer style, and sharpshooter, and wear chainmail. There, 16 AC, two attacks per round, at +6 each. or +1 each when using sharpshooter. You would definitely be giving him a run for his money in the DPR department.

And I could play a 14 int wizard that contributes just fine, it's more about the intelligence of the player than the PC.
 

The reason I use the cleric as the example (even without COdzilla) is because they still have great armor choice, good weapon choice, and if you don't self buff, just prep exploration spells and healing spells, and you can still out fight a fighter at several levels
This was my AD&D experience, yes. In 1st ed AD&D with weapon specialisation the fighter's multiple attacks overshadow the cleric even at 1st level, but 2nd ed AD&D had various options that allowed clerics to get specialisation-style benefits also.

In that case, I'll point out that in other editions, a melee cleric's damage output with weapons could usually be bettered by a warrior type due to weapon selection, better base odds of hitting, increased number of attacks, and a wider variety of weapons to choose from.
A mace in AD&D does 1d6+1 points of damage, which is as good as a longsword's 1d8, and has arguably better weapon vs armour mods if those are in use. Pre-Unearthed Arcana and weapon specialisation, the cleric has as many attacks as the fighter until 7th level. And in 2nd ed AD&D, there are options that allow the cleric to get specialisation benefits.

The difference in "to hit" is not tremendous at low levels (eg a 4th level cleric needs fewer XP than a 4th level fighter and has either the same to hit as a 4th level fighter or one worse, depending on which THACO/table option is in use), and the difference between a 16 STR (on the fighter) and a 17 STR (on the cleric) can make up for it or even allow the cleric a better chance to hit.

For some people, the chance of rolling/actually playing the paragon of human ability IS fun.
But this is not a reason for me to want to roll stats, given that I am a person of different preferences which I have set out pretty plainly in several posts upthread. Likewise [MENTION=67338]GMforPowergamers[/MENTION].

And if I wanted to I could achieve the aim of playing a paragon of human ability by letting everyone have an array of (say) 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13.

it allows for the creme de la creme, prime specimens to rise above the rest in terms of natural aptitude. That's plausible and realistic. Some people appreciate a little variety and realism.

<snip>

It teaches you about life, hard work and determination matter more than raw talent most of the time.
As I posted upthread, I regard D&D as a leisure activity, not a class in the school of hard knocks.

I also don't see what "variety and realism" have to do with anything. I don't need random stat rolls to inject variety into my game - the desires of the players to play different sorts of PCs will do that. (Your table may have a "cookie cutter" problem. Mine doesn't, as illustrated by my post upthread of the stat spreads in my 4e game.)

As far as realism is concerned, in what way is it unrealistic that all the PCs are roughly equal in mechanical capability?

Die rolling isn't unfair: everyone has exactly the same odds of getting any result on the bell curve. That is perfectly fair.
I also posted about this upthread. The fact that goods are distributed by way of an unbiased die roll is not a sufficient condition of the resultant outcome being fair.

A simple example. If we were both stuck in the desert, and between us had enough food for two people for one week, we could roll dice to determine that one of us gets all of it and the other none - thereby guaranteeing one of us two weeks's survival while the other is sure to perish. The fact that the lottery is unbiased does not suffice to make this a fair scheme for distribution of the food.

Other, less toy, examples could be given, but would be contrary to board rules. But there is an extensive literature on the issue, easily accessible, primarily inspired by Rawls's theory of "justice as fairness".

In the context of a FRPG, until you have established some facts about the purpose and context of the game you can't say whether or not random distribution of mechanical effectiveness via unbiased rolling is fair. In my case, the additional facts about purpose and context are that the point of the game includes the players using their PCs to mechanically impact the shared fiction, and that there is no reason why any player should have a head-start in this respect over the others. That purpose and context means that random determination of PC mechanical effectiveness is not fair, as it has the potential to give some players an unwarranted advantage in achieving one of the purposes of play.

For other FRPGers the purposes of play may be different. Hence things that are not fair in my game might be fair in theirs. That doesn't change the facts about my game, though.

5th edition was driven by Mike Mearls who boiled D&D's essence down to "the thrill of a natural 20, the agony of a natural 1".

So there's a man who clearly understood the central role that dice have in the game
unfairness, come to think of it, is indeed the point of D&D.

<snip>

the dice make it realistic

<snip>

Fairness in ability attributes is unrealistic to the point of being a straightjacket.

<snip>

Thank the heavens that life isn't fair. It would be boring beyond conception.
The notion that unfairness makes life interesting is one that is hard to tackle within the confines of board rules. I'll go as far as saying "Tell that to the mother whose child is dying of cholera" - or to the child, for that matter.

In the context of RPGing, you continue to conflate PC building and action resolution. For you they may not be interestingly different; but has it never occurred to you that others might see them as different processes (to again borrow [MENTION=9053]SteveC[/MENTION]'s phrasing, "prologue" vs "actual play")?

Balanced encounters means the invisible hand of god is stepping in to make things fair which really have no place being.
It's much more satisfying to overcome long odds than fair ones, and makes a more interesting story.

Balanced encounters are a bad thing, basically.
Whether or not this is true, it is completely irrelevant to the rolling of stats. PCs built via point buy or array can still be confronted with long odds. And a GM can still balance encounters against PCs with rolled stats - and indeed, in this very thread, some posters have advocated doing so as a response to [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]'s concern that rolled stats upset the basic maths of the game.

Also, rolling stats is not somehow less metagame-y than choosing them. It's all human decisions and human agency, in the service of writing up characters to use as vehicles for a roleplaying games. You might imagine that rolling stats mimics, in some way, the crucible of life in which your PC has been cast. But actually it's just you sitting at a table manipulating some tools and writing down some numbers. No one underwent any trials, or achieved or earned anything.

Injustice is a necessary prerequisite for justice.
This one only has to be quoted for its absurdity to stand out. It's like saying blowing up a city is a necessary condition of constructing it, or that murdering someone is a necessary condition of saving his/her life. That is, utterly implausible.
 

We had all these arguments six months ago in this thread. Now having the same ones again. Maybe a mod can close this thread so when it finally goes to rest, someone doesn't necro it again in six months to have the SAME arguments all over?
 

Whether or not this is true, it is completely irrelevant to the rolling of stats. PCs built via point buy or array can still be confronted with long odds. And a GM can still balance encounters against PCs with rolled stats - and indeed, in this very thread, some posters have advocated doing so as a response to [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]'s concern that rolled stats upset the basic maths of the game.

If you let the players self-pace, higher stats either make normal combats easier or allow accelerated progression through levels towards the endgame, whatever that happens to be, because fighting tougher things sooner grants more XP. Either way it's what the players enjoy so no harm done.

I enjoy informing my players that they just beat a triple-deadly threat with minimal losses. It makes them feel good. (I likewise enjoy informing them that they just got schooled by a small band of CR 1/4 drow. It makes them feel scared of the Underdark.)

YMMV, but I'm very much of the school that says "self-pacing and character trees render balance issues moot." Rolled stats, Sharpshooter: knock yourself out.
 

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