D&D 5E Array v 4d6: Punishment? Or overlooked data

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Usually bad rolls are not the real problems, every body agree on the non fun and to reroll or change the character.
The problematic case happens with high rolls, like 3 18 and no real bad stat. The rolling players want to keep it, the others start to think that is like too much, and the DM wonder how he will handle that!
Out of the several hundred characters I've DMed, I've had a few such god-like characters - legitimately rolled in front of me - come and go over the years. Experience tells me they don't tend to last much if any longer than characters with more typical stats. (one example: rolls were 18-18-17-17-15-15, character didn't make it through his first combat)
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Actually, I think they are... which is why it then leads to "every body agree" to reroll/change the PC.
I'm fine with this to a point, in that it reflects the reality of the fiction where someone of below-average stats/abilities realizes they're just not cut out for adventuring...or is told so by wiser folk. :)
How do you handle someone being taller and shorter people want to be taller, etc.?
What I've done for both height and weight is given a narrow-ish choose-able range close to the species-gender average, with rolling optional if you want to try for something more extreme. If you elect to roll, though, you're bound by what the dice give you even if it isn't what you wanted.
If you want to avoid that, you use a system which keeps rolls within the bounds and equal.

One I like was from this thread and I adjusted it slightly:

Roll 1d6. Generate a score by adding 7, generate a score by subtracting from 18.
Roll 1d6. Generate a score by adding 8, generate a score by subtracting from 17.
Roll 1d6. Generate a score by adding 9, generate a score by subtracting from 16.

This generates 6 scores between 8 and 17, averaging 12.5. It also guarantees that if you have a 17, you also have an 8. It also makes it so your best three scores can be are 17,16,15, along with a 10,9,8.
The problem with methods like this is it becomes impossible to start with a score lower than 8. Of all the characters I've played, my favourite was one who started with a 7 - and this was in 3e, where a 7 was more significant than in 1e. I've seen characters start with a 6, or worse, and go on to great careers. (hint: for fun and entertainment, the best place for these low stats is Wisdom!)
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
The problem with methods like this is it becomes impossible to start with a score lower than 8. Of all the characters I've played, my favourite was one who started with a 7 - and this was in 3e, where a 7 was more significant than in 1e. I've seen characters start with a 6, or worse, and go on to great careers. (hint: for fun and entertainment, the best place for these low stats is Wisdom!)
You can change the bounds however you want if you desire lower scores. Those were more to keep in line with 5E's minimum 8 for standard array and point-buy.
 






Horwath

Legend
If you roll for abilities 4d6D1, you get somewhere between 31 and 32 pts for point buy.

Maybe that is why PF1 point buy pool is 32pts.
Actually it's 20, but you start with 10 in all stats.(12pts worth)

boost point buy pool to 32pts and both methods can be used in same game.
max for point buy stays the same(15: 9pts)

trade the risk of having high stats from the start vs. a well rounded character.
 

We've always had a great deal of randomness in generation of things like previous professions, backgrounds, languages known (other than your own), etc.

That's the point. Just like many things in real life are based on luck.
Sorry for the delay; I forgot to get back to this.

So the main question I think has to be addressed to decide how you want to do it in your game, is where do you included choice, and why? Traditionally, you don't pick your ability scores, or you hit points, or the spells you learn on level up, but you do get to pick your race and class.

With just those variables, I think race stands out as an odd one to pick. If you only got to pick your class, then there would be some consistency. Here is a random person you get, now make of them what you can. But why do you get to choose to be born an elf, but not necessarily a graceful one? It's a weird agency insertion point.

Flip side: if one wants to minimize the character-build aspect of the game, random is the way to go. That way you can't come to the table with everything planned out; you have to take what the dice give you and work with that, and develop the character through play rather than pre-play mechanics.

Yeah, I was trying to include that sort of play goal in my description of reasons for random generation, but I must not have been clear enough.

Except - and this is the key thing - people aren't equal. So why should the characters be?

I get nothing out of playing unequal characters, unless that's an explicitly presented and accepted part of the plan, and there is a reason that works for me. So if I'm presented with a situation where a party of characters is going to have vastly different roles in a narrative focus, like the Fellowship of the Ring, then I might be interested. But if it's a game where the goal is to face challenges and grow in power, everyone not starting at the same level is a complete disincentive to my participation. I'm mostly referring to long-term play though. I'm game for just about anything for a one-shot lasting 4 or less sessions.

Curious here - what means of rolling did you use to achieve this?

I can't recall the precise system I used for the equal random generation (and the next time I'll improve it), but I can remember bits.

-I had a number that the raw random ability scores eventually needed to add up to. The stats were intended to be high for campaign-specific reasons, so I believe it was something like 80 or 82.
-We started with everyone rolling six ability scores. It was probably 4d6 drop lowest.
-After that, there was a cycle of rolling a d6 to target one of the ability scores, and then (I think) rolling another d6 to add or subtract from it, based on whether the ability score total was above or below the target total value.

Something like that. It was a little too messy, but I only needed it once and it generated some interesting results. The point buy option was a more typical 5e point buy, with a few more points. Because there is an increasing cost with point buy, and you can't efficiently get stats very low, the way it worked out was if you wanted to keep your stats pretty close to each other (hovering around 14), your ability scores could add up to a higher total than the random method. But, the random method could let you start with higher values that you couldn't otherwise buy with point buy. This meant you wouldn't want to take one of the random values unless it was giving you a wide stat range, because you could otherwise do better buying stats. As I said, I consider it a success because I had people carefully consider it and take both options.

The motivation is, to some extent, reflect the reality that not everyone is created equal (or, better word, equivalent). Further, to gently promote the idea that D&D, at the end, is a game based on luck. If it wasn't, it wouldn't use dice.

The luck angle is an interesting idea. I'm sure there is some sort of deeper analysis that could go on here. The way I experience it, I want luck to mostly have a short-term effect, not a permanent one. Permanent effects are more desirable to me as the results of consistent choices over a long span of time. Sure, in the real world some bad luck can ruin your life, but I don't find that a particularly desirable thing to bring into my entertainment. And I'm the kind of player who's willing to go through a lot more of a "grueling" play experience than anyone else I play with, so that's saying something for me.

But again, it's all about knowing what the play goal is, and figuring out efficient systems to provide it, rather than fighting systems that are getting in the way.
 

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