Originally posted by Tempest_Stormwind:
rampant wrote:I think the call to ditch the check for SSI may have been in the other thread. The point is that it's a bad idea
My internal tests and
Keith's playtest report suggest otherwise. The risk is a huge part of that ability. (Incidentally, I'm
already quite generous with it since it's on a short-rest recharge.)
You've explained a bunch of stuff about hte weapon and armor augments, I don't see where you explained that aspect specifically. You go on about cantrips and energy types and all sorts of stuff, but I don't see where you explain why that translates into burning craft reserve fo rthe day. And yes I call it a daily because using (at least before level 9) is on a daily limit. If you could use it five times per day, I would call it a daily, because that's the clock it's on.
Let me be specific, then. If everything's on a short rest, then the artificer will have absolutely no reason to take a long rest unless his infusions run dry, and his infusions are not as central to the class as his other modifications (though they do carry several useful party enhancement effects - despite your assertion that this isn't a support character). You seem to want to have an artificer who, simply by being on the team, instantly gives the entire team permanent magic weapons and badass armor. That's in violation of Goal 1, which I opened with for a good reason.
Furthermore, by setting it as a long-rest recovery with a slightly higher cost, you're forced to
think about when to use it. It already lasts an entire
hour (compare to Magic Weapon and Elemental Weapon, which are also on "long rest" recovery as they're spells, except Weapon Augmentation doesn't require Concentration), when most similar short-rest-recovery buff effects last only a
minute (see Sacred Weapon, probably the closest to Weapon Augmentation in spirit, which is a channel divinity (short rest) option). If Augmentation moves to a short rest recovery, then it's definitely only lasting a minute.
Also, the word "daily" has baggage from 4e, where it meant an ability that was usable once per day. An ability that can be used multiple times per day (or indeed in the same encounter), by definition, isn't "daily". It may use a depletable resource that's on a daily recharge, but that's not the same thing.
As for the SSI spells You're the one who decided to junk the spell slot cost. I just thought the craft reserve cost was a bit prohibitive expecially since they were already paying the spell slot cost. I was thinking that you could lower it a bit so that keeping a fully up-casted spell stored away somewhere for emergencies wasn't gonna bleed you dry.
The thing is, you
aren't "storing it away for emergencies" (that's what scrolls are for). You're building the perfect tool on the spot. (Incidentally, these items?
These are the non-DMG items you're talking about in your early replies. You're not casting Sleep, you're building a magical knockout gas system).
I'm looking at the original 3.5 artificer and I don't see a spell sotring power anywhere, much less one that requires a check.
Eberron Campaign Setting page 115, expressed in 5e form in Keith's much-linked blog post. The speed-up clause is the general rule at the top of page 31. (This is also how Weapon Augmentation worked at the time too - it also took a minute to use, so in-combat use required action points. I've been
really generous with that instead. But I degress - back to a risky SSI.)
It's always been a central part to the artificer - central enough that I decided to list it as a class feature instead of a spell (though with the tweaks to infusions, I could easily express it as one instead, using slots
entirely instead of reserve - this would mean you basically only use reserve for permanent items, augments, and magecraft, which is less appealing to me, and it means that your SSI
itself can be counterspelled as easily as the spell itself. If SSI proves more problematic, that's how I'll solve it - not by getting rid of its signature risk factor).
Let's quote Keith, in fact.
Keith Baker wrote:The first character I ever played in an Eberron campaign was a warforged artificer named Smith. My favorite thing about playing an artificer was the ability to come up with the perfect tool on the spur of the moment. Between Weapon Augmentation and Armor Enhancement I could tailor my equipment to have the ideal enhancement to deal with my current enemy. My favorite infusion was spell-storing item; this allowed an artificer to create a one-shot wand loaded with any spell of up to fourth level. I could come up with a healing spell to help a wounded ally, a fireball to take down a mob of enemies, or suddenly build a mystical translator (using the tongues spell) out of eggshells and coconuts. However, there were restrictions to balance out this powerful effect. The maximum level of the spell was tied to my level, so I couldn’t spell-store a cleric spell that a cleric of my level couldn’t cast. The infusion took a minute to perform, unless I burnt an action point to reduce this to one round. And most important of all: I had to make a skill check to make the infusion work, and if I made a particularly bad check the whole thing could backfire. So it was an extremely powerful and versatile effect, but it was unpredictable and risky. More than anything else, THIS made me feel like a magical inventor. I could reverse-engineer the magic performed by any other class… but I could never be sure this dangerous experiment would work!
My experience with artificers is similar - this single infusion turned the artificer from a buff machine into an outright mad magical scientist. It was a little
too broad in 3.5, though, and it was easy as pie for an artificer to custom-build magic items to give insane bonuses to the skill needed to do this. I endeavored to fix those here.
Also 23 spells known is far from a small number, also I never said it had to be a small number just not a theoretically infinite one where they don't pay opportunity costs to learn new ones.
Opportunity costs also come in
using the things too, not just in learning them. There's resources on
that side too.
Imagine a wizard with twice as many spells in his spellbook and spells prepared, but a 50% failure rate. He'd
definitely be weaker! Now consider that the artificer has about half as many spells in the spellbook to begin with, can't use more than a handful between short rests, takes a full minute to use any of them (or a hit die, which is rather limited since only
half of the ones you spend return on a long rest), and still might fail. His sole advantages here are that they can come from any list (but they still require the appropriate components and concentration, which prevents the worst offenders from earlier editions) and that he doesn't need to prepare them (they're like wizard spellbook rituals in this way, except they
do cost a depletable resource).
Of course that's not even getitng into how hard you're trying to make the artificer a wonky primary caster instead of a support monster.
Considering which spells
actually work with SSI (hint: the support/utility spells you use outside of combat), the delayed access to stronger spells, class features which emphasize support (especially now that augments are team-enabled by default), and the list of
entirely support-driven infusions, I find your characterization the exact
opposite of apt.
What, exactly, would a "support" character look like, in your eyes?
Potions are nice and all but not enough to carry the class, SSI can only be used by the artificer himself, and the infusions are just normal spells essentially.
Infusions are also entirely support-based (unless you're fighting constructs). The reason SSIs can't be used by teammates is to prevent the artificer from building multiple laser cannons (Scorching Ray) and having the entire team unload them at once - he's the one who bult them,
he's the one who understands them, they're unstable and won't last long enough for him to explain to you how they work, and it's not
his fault you spent your time learning the deeper secrets of swordplay or theology instead of arcanoengineering.
Scrolls and SSI are the real hook for the class and they can't even use them properly, well that's a bit unfair to scrolls I guess since they were always designed tio be caster specific, but SSI is where your artificer could really have made a name for itself and because you force the artificer to cast his own SSI spells you loose that potential. If the Artificer could hand out a few spells stored in items befor e afight and let his allies trigger them it would be amazing. Which is why you need the spell slot cost to be honest.
Right, and without the spell slot cost, having the artificer be the only one who can use them makes perfect sense for
this exact reason. You seem to think "SSI" means "full spellcaster". I strongly suggest you actually try it before you make that conclusion. If you think I'm wrong, show me why I'm wrong - I'm moved by
data.
As for scrolls, it's interesting - the blanket rules for scrolls say anyone can use them, but
spell scrolls in particular require you to be a spellcaster who has the spell on their list. (And I mention it during spellcrafting, but for purposes of making or using magic items, this artificer is considered a spellcaster with the spells in his book of schema as his list, so
yes he can use his own scrolls.) At the moment there's only one kind of scroll that isn't a
spell scroll - specifically, the Scroll of Protection, which is reasonably similar to the Magic Circle spell.
So, yes, if you want him to build devices that his teammates can use, that's what scrolls are for. They also eat up craft reserve for their entire duration, take a little longer to make (but last forever), and so on. And if you want the
entire team to start throwing spells, including those who can't use
spell scrolls, look at the alchemists' guild spell flasks. (And, to a lesser extent, their bombs - the alchemists' guild deliberately
doesn't say only the artificer can throw bombs. He's just faster at it, as he can do it as an action or a bonus action.)
The most terrifying artificers were never the ones with the rods of railgun, or the buffed out god armor that made them +50 at everything. The really scary hammerjockies were the ones that remembered what an artificer was for: Party Enhancement.
Considering how the 3.5 artificer's party enhancements fell into two categories - custom permanent magic items that did whatever you wanted and upgraded the team beyond what they could possibly have obtained through loot, and temporary enhancements through infusions (including Weapon Augmentation, Armor Augmentation, and Spell Storing Item, which were on spell slots ("daily" in your parlance) in the 3.5 artificer instead of the reserve system here).
The first of these two
will not work in 5e, and trying to implement them violates Goal 1.
The second of these is still here, with a very similar infusion list, a generous (but
not full!) slot progression, and
much more frequent use of SSIs and removal of competition for slots on the augments through craft reserve. (And if you
absolutely must have eternal augments up, look at the spellforgers' guild.)
Revisions made:
- Trying something new. I've switched it to a 2/3 caster (partly because I typoed the higher levels for 3/4). This really delays higher level spells, further shifting from the "full caster" description you've provided.
- I gave the whole thing an editing pass, so it's lighter on the text, which gives a better impression of how much space it'll actually take up in a book (Goal 3).
- Spell Storing Mastery now applies to 4th level SSIs as well; I misremembered the old SSI. The reason it doesn't go up to 5th (like Arcane Recovery, Natural Recovery, or Pact Magic) is twofold: you're already on short-rest recovery for SSI regardless of the level of the spell, and the new progression only just gives you 5ths at level 14 (so using your highest-level spells always carries a risk).
- I'm considering your insistent suggestions on Augmentation. Which of the following is more appealing: A one-minute duration for the core class but a short-rest-recharge for the Spellforgers' Guild; a one-minute duration and a short-rest recharge on the core class and a reduced cost for the Spellforgers' Guild, or a one-minute duration on the core class and a one-hour duration for the Spellforgers' Guild (both on a long-rest recharge)? Personally, I prefer the first one.
