D&D 5E As a DM cleric spells to watch out for in 5e?

[jgsugden]

So I really like clerics thematically as buff, heal, divination, and some weird utility type spellcasters. Narratively I generally don't like clerical god laser blasting spells, though divine hammer flamestrike and holy word type things don't really rub me the wrong way. Generally I like zaps to be arcane and a lot of damage to come round to round from the martials. With the clerical daily access to anything on the spell list it is easy to find and load up on the rare spells that are arguably off theme or overpowered.

As a DM I have repeatedly been introduced to the PC cleric of my group's favorite 2nd 3rd level spell spirit guardians, the auto damage to enemies only in an area ongoing spell which is super effective. It seems to have significantly altered fights it gets deployed in, which is most of them. My games narratively rarely have large numbers of separate encounter fights per game day so it often gets deployed in combat.

My group is currently 5th level, any other clerical spells you think I should particularly be on the lookout for as he levels and I think about fight encounters? PHB, Xanathars, and Tashas are all books that I have.

You should not be concerned with these spells. There are no spells in any official product that should 'concern' you. They're all fine.

3rd level spells are a very intentional 'upgrade' in power over 2nd level spells. It is intended to be a significant jump. Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball, Fly, Spirit Guardians, Revivify - these open up new levels of power to PCs that were unavailable before. They are intended to change the way the game operates. They are one of the marks, along with abilities like Multi-attack for weapon PCs, that mark the transition to Heroic levels of play.

There is a very common mistake that many DMs make: They fail to realize that D&D is intended to change as PCs advance. The intent is for advancing magics to trivialize things that used to be a challenge to PCs at lower levels. Certain styles of challenge are intended to be too easy once the PCs gain access to powerful divinations, transmutations, etc... This change is what allows the players to see that their PCs are becoming more powerful. When the abilities of the PCs grow, it is something you should emphasize as a DM and celebrate - not something that should concern you.

My advice to you is to not plan for Spirit Guardians unless the NPC has a natural reason to plan for it. Contriving a reason for the enemy to be prepared for it tends to make it look like the DM is a bad sport, that the DM doesn't want the PCs to succeed, and that the DM is more interested in dictating how the game should go than sharing the journey with the players (by allowing them to shape the game with their decisions and character abilities). As a DM, you end up looking like that Fastfood Manager that spills grease on the floor because their clean up crew was cleaning too fast and the manager thought their regional manager needed to see their employees cleaning up more.

At levels 1 to 4 PCs should struggle a bit with mundane problems, and feel like the world is intimidating. From 5 to 10, they should feel like they've found their place and are effective. From 11 to 16 they should feel like they are starting to be real forces in their world - and are capable of making lasting changes to the regions they populate. From levels 17 and above they should feel like they are major players in the world.

 

[Voadam]

By the way Moonbeam was written, we took it as not requiring actually seeing the creature (or even the space where the bottom would be) and it didn't require a too-hit. So it was used to get something behind cover and at another point something on a ledge. With a 5' radius (10' diameter) it could block an entire hallway, and at 40' high even something like a crevice.

I will need to check out Spiritual weapon.

Ahh, I had misread that in my quick lookover of the spell, it is a 5' radius and not a 5' square. That improves it a bit.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

So if I were to pull the fingernails off an NPC, in an effort to gain information from them... in your game that's 'not torture?

What? Huh? What sort of freakshow D&D games are you running!? What did I say that could possibly make you think I'm running them like that???!!!

 

[ECMO3]

So I really like clerics thematically as buff, heal, divination, and some weird utility type spellcasters. Narratively I generally don't like clerical god laser blasting spells, though divine hammer flamestrike and holy word type things don't really rub me the wrong way. Generally I like zaps to be arcane and a lot of damage to come round to round from the martials. With the clerical daily access to anything on the spell list it is easy to find and load up on the rare spells that are arguably off theme or overpowered.

As a DM I have repeatedly been introduced to the PC cleric of my group's favorite 2nd 3rd level spell spirit guardians, the auto damage to enemies only in an area ongoing spell which is super effective. It seems to have significantly altered fights it gets deployed in, which is most of them. My games narratively rarely have large numbers of separate encounter fights per game day so it often gets deployed in combat.

My group is currently 5th level, any other clerical spells you think I should particularly be on the lookout for as he levels and I think about fight encounters? PHB, Xanathars, and Tashas are all books that I have.

Not sure what you mean by on the look out for.

If you are talking about mechanics, here are the most rules violations with cleric mechanics I have seen:
1. Not understanding or pretending not to understand action vs bonus action with healing word/aid/cure wounds etc. There are specifics for each.

2. Not paying attention to which spells have Somatic components and trying to cast these while holding a weapon and shield. Also trying to cast a spell with both S and M without first setting up your shield to be a focus. Finally if players get off-class spells through a feat or have racial spells, not getting the material components for such or trying to use your holy symbol or shield as the material component.

3. Casting healing word and trying to follow it up with a spell as an action.

4. Trying to use spare the dying from range.

In terms of offensive spells, the Cleric is generally outclassed by every other full caster so I would not worry about that from a power/balance point of view. Tier 2 their best combo is probably spiritual weapon-Spirit Guardians-attack/cantrip. That is pretty decent damage, but it is not OP as it takes three turns to come fully online and spirit guardians rarely lasts long because it is concentration and you need to be near the front for it to be effective. People rave about spirit guardians but generally I think Faerie Fire (which is not generally available to clerics) is usually a higher payoff than Spirit guardiansby enhancing every attack the entire party makes on affected enemies and it does it with a much lower slot cost.

From a thematic point of view if you demand Clerics stay in their "healing box" few players are going to want to play clerics. 5E is pretty flexible, you don't need a healer in the party at all and forcing the cleric to play a healer is going to cause problems with a lot of players.

 

[ECMO3]

Cantrips. Guidance is a monumental nuisance. Literally every action anyone takes...ever...the cleric will shout out "I cast guidance!" Better banned.

I have never had a problem with this, either as a player or as a DM.

I think RAW discussion on actions is appropriate here and should fix this. If a person says "I look for secret doors", then the cleric says "I cast guidance" that is fine they can both do it, but guidance is an action to cast, not a reaction, so out of initiative the check happens before the spell is cast. In initiative guidance can only be cast on the cleric's turn unless he readies an action to cast it or has warcaster and the person he wants to cast it on caused an AOO.

Also keep in mind it is concentration, so things like Hex, Hunters Mark, Pass Without Trace will drop if you cast it out of combat and in combat spirit guardians, moonbeam, faerie fire spike growth etc are going to drop when you cast it.

In one of the games I am playing now my Ranger has guidance. When I do something I will often say "I cast guidance and then look for a secret door" When it is other players occasionally they will ask for it before they try something and if they do I will either give it to them or remind them "I am concentrating on pass without trace". I will also mention it before we decide on something if we are planning that is going to require checks "I can cast guidance on everyone as they climb across the rickety rope bridge one-by-one and then I can cast it on myself and go last"

 

[Cadence]

Not sure what you mean by on the look out for.

If you are talking about mechanics, here are the most rules violations with cleric mechanics I have seen:
1. Not understanding or pretending not to understand action vs bonus action with healing word/aid/cure wounds etc. There are specifics for each.

2. Not paying attention to which spells have Somatic components and trying to cast these while holding a weapon and shield. Also trying to cast a spell with both S and M without first setting up your shield to be a focus. Finally if players get off-class spells through a feat or have racial spells, not getting the material components for such or trying to use your holy symbol or shield as the material component.

3. Casting healing word and trying to follow it up with a spell as an action.

4. Trying to use spare the dying from range.

In terms of offensive spells, the Cleric is generally outclassed by every other full caster so I would not worry about that from a power/balance point of view. Tier 2 their best combo is probably spiritual weapon-Spirit Guardians-attack/cantrip. That is pretty decent damage, but it is not OP as it takes three turns to come fully online and spirit guardians rarely lasts long because it is concentration and you need to be near the front for it to be effective. People rave about spirit guardians but generally I think Faerie Fire (which is not generally available to clerics) is usually a higher payoff than Spirit guardiansby enhancing every attack the entire party makes on affected enemies and it does it with a much lower slot cost.

From a thematic point of view if you demand Clerics stay in their "healing box" few players are going to want to play clerics. 5E is pretty flexible, you don't need a healer in the party at all and forcing the cleric to play a healer is going to cause problems with a lot of players.

Several of us in our group missed how bonus actions work with healing word for a while. :-/

 

[overgeeked]

I have never had a problem with this, either as a player or as a DM.

I think RAW discussion on actions is appropriate here and should fix this. If a person says "I look for secret doors", then the cleric says "I cast guidance" that is fine they can both do it, but guidance is an action to cast, not a reaction, so out of initiative the check happens before the spell is cast. In initiative guidance can only be cast on the cleric's turn unless he readies an action to cast it or has warcaster and the person he wants to cast it on caused an AOO.

Also keep in mind it is concentration, so things like Hex, Hunters Mark, Pass Without Trace will drop if you cast it out of combat and in combat spirit guardians, moonbeam, faerie fire spike growth etc are going to drop when you cast it.

In one of the games I am playing now my Ranger has guidance. When I do something I will often say "I cast guidance and then look for a secret door" When it is other players occasionally they will ask for it before they try something and if they do I will either give it to them or remind them "I am concentrating on pass without trace". I will also mention it before we decide on something if we are planning that is going to require checks "I can cast guidance on everyone as they climb across the rickety rope bridge one-by-one and then I can cast it on myself and go last"

My issue is that it's spammed constantly. If it were a leveled spell like bless it would be fine. But as it's a cantrip, the casters with it will literally not let a single action in the game happen without trying to shoe-horn guidance in somehow. Doesn't matter how ridiculous. If any character in the game tries to perform any action at all..."I cast guidance!" No PC can do anything without guidance. You want to haggle and the cleric's not there, stop the game, go find the cleric, or bring the cleric with you...so you can get a +1d4 to your check. You want to pick a lock...stop the game, go find the cleric, so you can get a +1d4 to your check. Literally every action that has a roll..."I cast guidance!" It's not that a +1d4 is wildly overpowered, it's not really. But as a spammable cantrip, it's a bit much. It mostly comes down to players being ridiculous with it. It's more annoying than it's worth.

ETA: Wait. How long do you have searching for secret doors take? According to the PHB, it takes a minute to search for traps, and 10 minutes to search a chamber. Searching for a secret door would more than likely be on the high end of that scale (1-10 minutes).

 

[Benjamin Olson]

My issue is that it's spammed constantly. If it were a leveled spell like bless it would be fine. But as it's a cantrip, the casters with it will literally not let a single action in the game happen without trying to shoe-horn guidance in somehow. Doesn't matter how ridiculous. If any character in the game tries to perform any action at all..."I cast guidance!" No PC can do anything without guidance. You want to haggle and the cleric's not there, stop the game, go find the cleric, or bring the cleric with you...so you can get a +1d4 to your check. You want to pick a lock...stop the game, go find the cleric, so you can get a +1d4 to your check. Literally every action that has a roll..."I cast guidance!" It's not that a +1d4 is wildly overpowered, it's not really. But as a spammable cantrip, it's a bit much. It mostly comes down to players being ridiculous with it. It's more annoying than it's worth.

See I'm fine with the spamability, what's annoying is the spamability combined with a player who can never seem to remember the constraints of it being a one minute, touch spell that REQUIRES CONCENTRATION and AN ACTION TO CAST IN ADVANCE. I don't object to the occasional reasonable "oh I'm sorry my character would have given him Guidance for that", or the silliness of wanting to go get the Cleric before every important ability check, but I do object to when it becomes a DM burden to police because someone can't quite manage to track their own concentration or wants to constantly give retroactive Guidance whether or not the spell could feasibly have been cast.

 

[Voadam]

Not sure what you mean by on the look out for.

New Spells to be aware of. New Mechanics to be aware of from changes in spells. New cleric capabilities from how spells are different in 5e. New top picks for cleric spells. New consequences to be aware of from how cleric spells are different in 5e.

Spirit guardians is a 3rd level area of effect damage spell that lasts round to round for concentration.

In 1e AD&D a 3rd level cleric combat spell could cause a ranged single target save or be blinded (continual light). Most of the good 1e cleric 3rd level spells were cure effect spells or dispel magic or utility type speak with dead or create permanent light or create food.

In 3e clerics could also do a ranged single target save or blindness deafness, and also inflict serious wounds touch attack for 3d8+ caster level damage (+15 max), and searing light single target ranged touch attach for 1d8/2 caster levels 5d8 max. This was a shift to more immediate combat damage options including god lasers, but it was one shot single target spells.

5e's spirit guardians is a shift to ongoing area damage at 3rd level core cleric spells.

I have played a bunch of 5e with some people who have played a lot of older D&D and are not big into mechanics specifics so a lot of stuff has played similarly to prior editions. My current group has more people focused on effective leveraging of mechanics. The impact of the new to 5e spell spirit guardians caught me by surprise a bit when calibrating the challenge of different encounters and the types of effects I generally expect from different classes.

 

[Zardnaar]

Torture often leads to false confessions though, right? Would this avoid that?

There's counter arguements as well. Gestapo had a very high success rate.