D&D (2024) Asians Represent: "Has WotC Fixed the D&D Monk?"

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
II don't think that they can as long as it's single handedly trying to force mall ninja cultivation novel tropes into a system of mechanics and world building where they don't fit, you can't ignore the baggage with just a change from ki to discipline.

Strip away the wuxia/cultivation layers and you immediately crash into the earlier mentioned don't bring a fist to a swordfight problem because the concept only works if you are somehow reskinning the other eleven classes to fit the setting and mechanics to those layers that makeup the entirety of the monk. Once you start adding it to the other classes you keep it till you get to things like battle angel, full metal alchemist, ghost in the shell, beast wars, and other fictional examples that outright replace it with cybernetics or similar. The wuxia/cultivation tropes exist to make martial arts "cooler" than weapons and even then said fiction tends to very often rely heavily on them. Trying to make the unarmed cultivator martial artist who doesn't need weapons or armor concept work in a setting & set of mechanics without the obvious cultural/ethnic links to dubious things like the old Kung Fu tv show in a system and setting where everyone else tries to use weapons and armor would be a bit like trying to normalize lawn jockeys or something.
 

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akr71

Hero
The Asians Represent podcast took a closer look at the Playtest 6 Monk and found it wanting.
That is extremely generous.

I agree that WotC definitely doesn't know what 'martial arts' is and should bring in a consultant that does. It really wouldn't be hard to find some people that practice some form of martial art and play D&D. I know several, including myself and I live in a small town of less than 10000.

Yes, Unarmed Strikes should be a major focus of the class, but many martial arts have a rich history of weapon use. I do not understand why WotC can't grasp that and insists on handicapping a monk should they choose to use weapons. They are part of the Warrior group - give them martial weapons, but also allow Weapon Masteries on unarmed strikes.
 

The interesting thing about Wuxia is that its understood to be the equivalent of Euro-centric sword and sorcery, and I think some of the same people who don't have any interest in the latter are curiously emphatic about the former.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Strip away the wuxia/cultivation layers and you immediately crash into the earlier mentioned don't bring a fist to a swordfight problem because the concept only works if you are somehow reskinning the other eleven classes to fit the setting and mechanics to those layers that makeup the entirety of the monk. Once you start adding it to the other classes you keep it till you get to things like battle angel, full metal alchemist, ghost in the shell, beast wars, and other fictional examples that outright replace it with cybernetics or similar. The wuxia/cultivation tropes exist to make martial arts "cooler" than weapons and even then said fiction tends to very often rely heavily on them. Trying to make the unarmed cultivator martial artist who doesn't need weapons or armor concept work in a setting & set of mechanics without the obvious cultural/ethnic links to dubious things like the old Kung Fu tv show in a system and setting where everyone else tries to use weapons and armor would be a bit like trying to normalize lawn jockeys or something.

This just isn't true, for a lot of reasons.

To start with the obvious, most cultures have some conception of the great power that lies within the unarmed warrior. Just look around you. Whether it's "Hollywood action flicks" (that long pre-date the current spate of movies) with people being able to punch their way out of any problems, or the real-life glorification of Krav Maga and Afro-Brazilian Martial arts, or the Vedas describing the legendary fights and their heroes (which led to codification into actual schools of fighting systems) .... or even the current hot trope of superheroes, where, as we all know, Batman doesn't use a gun.

So to say that the idea that unarmed combat is only something that only belongs in some kind of wuxia fantasy just doesn't make sense.

More importantly, you are discounting the fact that D&D has always been a melange of different influences. This argument is simply a rehashed version of the old, "I don't want X in MY D&D so no one else should have it either." Just replace X with anything- science fiction? Anachronisms? Gun powder? Just look at the original class listing of D&D, and what is was truly inspired by-
Druids are the Roman recounting of Celts. So we're looking at sources from the 150 BCE to 100 CE.
Assassins, despite the trappings, are derived from the Middle Eastern Hashshashiyin, as recounted to the West in 1300 by Marco Polo.
Thieves were brought to Gygax as "box-men," with abilities that didn't exist until much later and are, again, based on romanticized reports from the Middle East first reported in the West in 1800s.
Bards were stated to be an amalgamation of Norse skalds, Celtic (?!?) bards, and southern European court minstrels.
Clerics were an admixture of vampire hunters from Hammer Horror films (1960s) and Odo of Bayeux (1097)/
Paladins were based off of Holger Carlsen from a book.
Rangers were ... well, we all know that one.

I could keep going, but it should be apparent. Ideas came from everywhere. They were put into a blender called D&D.

Now, all that being said, the original Monk was based off of Remo Williams in the Destroyer series of novels, as well as an influx of content produced in Asia (at this time, mainly Hong Kong). This was during a time when there were two separate things going on- first, appropriation. Remo Williams definitely trafficked in some of the uncomfortable tropes that were prevalent back then. White guy travels to "orient" (usually made up or unspecified or legendary location), finds old master, trains to become the greatest ever. Then again, we still see that today- Batman Begins, anyone?

More importantly, however, this isn't the 70s. Asia (generically, but more specifically the cultural powerhouses of Japan, South Korea, and China) export a lot of their culture to the United States. Heck, RRR just won an Oscar- showing that Bollywood is also getting its due, finally. This is a good thing! People today are able to enjoy amazing culture from all over the world, easily, and we see it reflected every day.

To stand athwart this type of progress and say that you don't want it in your D&D is fine, for your group. But I will not deny others the ability to play what they want.

Now, I do think that there are interesting questions. Asians Represent want the Monk to swerve harder into a more "Asian" approach- what is that, pan-Asian? Fantasy Asian? Personally, I think that the idea of having a more universalist approach that also allows people to create martial artists with the fantasy flair that they want is a better approach; whether it's a "Kung Fu," or "Capoeira," whether it's inspired by the Seven Deadly Venoms or Avatar: The Last Airbender or Roadhouse or RRR or whatever they want.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
I'm cynical enough to believe that WotC is in a "no-win" situation here regardless. Even if they brought in several martial artist consultants and they made changes to the Monk as a result of their findings... some things that remain coded as Asian-inspired will upset a large swathe of the market, and other things that had those Asian-inspired ideas stripped away will upset another large swathe of the market. We few schmucks here on EN World can't even agree whether Rangers should have favored enemies or not... do we really think the billions of people in the Asian market will all come together and agree whether the D&D Monk is acceptable or not no matter the changes?

Not to mention that we also have the situation where it is a single "potentially Asian-inspired" class amongst 11 other "Euro-inspired" classes, so there is a disparity there. Why only one Eastern concept amongst so many Western? Which then of course would then lead to others asking the question of where are the potential African, South Asian, and South American-inspired classes? Why is East Asia represented and these others are not? And how many of all of these other peoples do we need to represent to balance this big tent of Dungeons & Dragons?

I mean at the end of the day, that's the cross WotC will have to bear for being the biggest dog in the yard. There will be an expectation that their game be everything to everyone because they are the ones with the finances and reach to BE everything to everyone. And they're going to have to try and walk that fine line of "How can we be representative without being pandering?" and "Can we actually expand the width of the game beyond Euro-centric medieval fantasy without diluting the game to the point where it becomes nothing to no one, rather than everything to everyone?"

I have absolutely no idea what the answer is because I do not know what the future peoples of the world will want or need to see in this game of Dungeons & Dragons. And I just hope that Wizards of the Coast will be able to do their best to answer somewhat correctly... AND be prepared for the backlash if they guess wrong.
 

gametaku

Explorer
- They seem confused by WOTC's efforts to make the Monk non-Asian coded while trying to bring more non-European representation into the game.
Wasn't one of the issues that come up during the creator summit was that the monk was Asian coded?

As someone whose culture is stereotyped by the monk, how will it change?
The monk has had that problem and we're going to improve that but part of the issue is that there is not enough non0European representation in the other classes so we're adding more non-European representation to all the classes and then flipping it in the monk to provide that its wording and art isn't specifically Asian because there are unarmed martial traditions all over the world.

source: https://www.enworld.org/threads/d-d-creator-summit-vtt-one-d-d.696974/
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Any thoughts?
The D&D Monk represents a trope where an Asian thing is repackaged for a Western audience.

It has never meshed well with most of the rest of the default, very Western, cultural assumptions.

My best advice would be to drop the idea to make the Monk more representative of Asian culture. Why single out just one class.

I would much more like a D&D West game (where the Monk class is used to build Friar Tuck type characters) and a D&D East game (where ALL the classes are representative of Asian culture!)
 




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