I was referring to the PHB.... the fact that Mearls agrees with the PHB is just gravy on top.
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D&D 5E Assassinate
- Thread starter Jaracove
- Start date
Well, if you purposely ignore one of the core mechanics of the game... and one of the few that allow a DM to tailor the encounter to a specific situation... of course you are going to have trouble getting the general rules to apply to a specific situation.
Does gaining advantage on an attack devalue Enhance Ability Str??
You seem to be making an arbitrary distinction that negatively impacts the game, then using that negative impact to declare part of the game as 'not working right'.
No, because an Attack roll is not an ability check. enhance ability strength does nothing for attack rolls. It would devalue a spell like foresight or invisibility. I generally only hand out advantage on attack rolls for conditions that give it per the PHB.
Advantage on initiative rolls is no different than running surprise as I was running it before. It would be a house rule. I feel like avoiding those. Nowhere in the PHB does anything given advantage on initiative checks other than enhance ability dexterity. That is your house rule.
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You still have to worry about how goes first. An incapacitated target with zero hit points might still roll a 20 on his death save granting him 1 hit point.
You can't worry about small things too much. I find it disturbing that an incapacitated target still receives his dex bonus to AC. And you could technically argue they still receive their shield bonus as well. Even though neither makes any sense.
Greenstone.Walker
Adventurer
That is just for simplicity. Your character only has one AC. You write it in one place on the character sheet. Every attack uses the one value. Not very realistic, true, but simple.
I know the reason behind it. Just don't see why it would have been hard to incorporate a rule that no dex or shield bonus when incapacitated, paralyzed, or otherwise unable to move.
Hriston
Dungeon Master of Middle-earth (He/him)
That isn't how I read it. Surprise retains its natural meaning throughout the rulebook, but D&D surprise doesn't cover all meanings of the word surprise. I can give someone a pleasant surprise by giving them a gift they weren't expecting. By the dictionary definition they are surprised. In D&D, however, surprise is never pleasant.
Use the natural meaning by all means, but you have to go beyond a dictionary definition if you aren't going to simply ignore the majority of what the rules say on the subject. The rules give certain benefits for surprising your opponents, but they also tell you what sort of surprise that has to be. All surprise is not equal. This type of surprise requires your adversary to have not noticed any threats when the encounter begins. Any other type of surprise is irrelevant if you want to gain the game-benefits of surprise.
The rules also tell us what the benefits of surprise are and how long they last: only up until the end of the surprised creature's first turn. Any other surprise the creature might experience after this time is irrelevant because in game terms it can't have the same effect as surprise, the time for surprise being in the past.
A natural language meaning of surprise is useful, and the reason in my opinion they even used the word surprise in the first place, because it tells us when something is not surprise. By a reading of the rules which ignores the natural meaning, someone might think it was possible for me to gain surprise by first telling you, "Look, I'm going to go hide behind that bookshelf, and when you walk by I'm going to jump out and attack you." I get behind the bookshelf and stay as quiet as possible, like I'm not even there. None of your senses can detect me. When you walk by and I jump out, are you surprised? Of course not. I told you exactly what I was going to do. It simply isn't surprise.
I actually engaged in a long debate on another thread about this several months ago arguing for an interpretation in which the above situation would result in surprise. My reading was that if someone noticed a threat but didn't notice another threat then they would still be surprised. I was so sure I was right that I asked Jeremy Crawford if this was the case, and he said no, you are only surprised if you haven't noticed any threats whatsoever.
Now, in the above situation maybe your girlfriend isn't much of a threat, or maybe hasn't been noticed as a threat per se. I think there is some room for DM discretion as to what constitutes a threat. Her intentions certainly seem to be hostile given what happens, but this might not be apparent to me. Do I get an Insight check?
And I'm sure that it's very surprising when you jump out with a knife, but how much more surprising would it have been if you and your girlfriend had both hidden and jumped out and attacked me together as I walked along, lost in thought. Maybe its because I've lived in cities most of my life, but a stranger approaching me, even one asking for help, would probably put me a little on guard, and I'm not an adventurer walking around in a dungeon.
That's awesome. The only thing I would've ruled differently is letting the PC use Assassinate on the Drow. He noticed a threat: the Wizard, and you let him act in the first round, so he must not have been surprised. You seem to be using one definition of surprise for Assassinate, and another when it comes to actual surprise. If that works for you and your group, that's great. Personally, I like for the word to be used consistently throughout the text, and besides, surprise can be fairly deadly and shouldn't be too easy to get, IMO.
redrick
First Post
This may be pointless to discuss, because if you rule that the "surprise" required by Assassinate is no more and no less than the general English-language dictionary definition, this all comes down to you, your Websters, and the psychology of the opponent in question. There's not a whole lot for me to explore there with you.
But, because I honestly think it's interesting, let's explore the situation above, with the understanding that the "surprise" of Assassinate is the same "surprise" from page 69 of the Basic Rules.
Surprise, on page 69, and, as I extrapolate, to other places it is referenced with regards to D&D 5e combat, is all about the awareness of potential combatants. If I am unaware of a group of potentially hostile creatures, when they jump out of hiding, burst through the door, drop in from the skylight, I am surprised and unable to take normal actions within the first 6 seconds of their assault. (Though, as discussed at length, I am able to take reactions at a certain point, depending on my initiative roll.) What this means, broadly, is that, as long as I am aware of any combatants, I am ready for combat. On page 60, the basic rules state, "In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around." In other words, once I am ready for combat with one person, I am also expecting combat from some other direction. I am able to act normally, though I might not be aware of some hidden combatants, and so am unlikely to target them with my actions. So, if a hostile creature approaches me in plain sight, while another hostile creature slinks along, a bit to the side, or a bit to the back, I am ready for combat the moment I see that first hostile creature. Learning about the second hostile creature doesn't surprise me.
On the other hand, what if I am aware of someone, but do not believe them to be a potential combatant? If that is the case, sure, I could be surprised. I'm not aware of the chance of combat. The woman standing with a map might give me no reason to suspect that any hostilities might occur, so when you jump out from behind the trash can where you are hiding with a knife, I am ambushed and surprised.
For this to work, however, I truly have to be convinced that your girlfriend is not threatening in any way, which, as Hriston says, depends on the setting. Are we walking down Broadway in the middle of the day? Or are we walking down a street in my neighborhood in the middle of the night? Does your girlfriend have any weapons or other signs of combat on her? Does your girlfriend look like somebody who would normally set foot in my part of the world? And ask me for directions? (Like, you know, am I a goblin and she's a human?) As long as we can reasonably establish that I am completely unthreatened by the creature I'm aware of, and, of course, unaware of all the nasty adventurers with knives hanging out behind a trash can, I think we can say that I am surprised, with all the benefits that entails. (I don't act normally during this round of combat, I could be assassinated, etc.) I'd also rule that your girlfriend is also surprised, because for her to act in more close coordination with you would probably give away the ruse. So she can't act normally during the first round of combat either. Though some really good rolling on her part might change my mind.
Oh, and if, despite all of this, I, the goblin, decide to attack your girlfriend with a shortsword instead of helpfully giving her directions, I'm aware of combat (since I started it), and am not surprised.
Those are the criteria that I'd use. I actually think we had a situation somewhat like that in my game once. (The bard approached a potentially hostile individual, and tried to offer his services as a mook. The two talked, the bard succeeded on a number of persuasion and deception rolls, and then the rogue jumped out from behind a tree and shot an arrow in the hostile individual's face.)
Arial Black
Adventurer
Initiative rolls do not determine surprise!
I've read every post on this thread, and joined this forum just to point this out! On here, people are seriously saying that because your initiative score is reached that you are no longer surprised!
That is not how surprise works. The DM determines surprise. How? He can decide, by fiat, that creature X is surprised. Or, he may use some other method. The most common being opposed Stealth/Perception rolls, although opposed Deception/Insight rolls would be more appropriate in situations where the creature was already seen but you had no reason to believe that it was going to attack, such as being suddenly stabbed by your dentist for no reason.
What are the effects of surprise? Well, there are two game mechanics (that I know of) that apply when a creature is surprised:-
* in the first round of combat, a surprised creature cannot move or act on its turn, and cannot take reactions until its first turn is over
* if an assassin hits a surprised creature, then that hit is a critical hit!
Both are true, and both are true independently. Whether your turn has come up yet in the initiative count has absolutely no impact on whether or not you are surprised; it only impacts when you can act and/or take reactions.
When does a surprised creature stop being surprised? Is it when his first turn is over? No. The initiative count/your initiative total do not determine surprise.
The DM determines surprise (by fiat or by an appropriate check), and the DM determines when a surprised creature stops being surprised (by fiat, or by an appropriate check).
Conceptually, a creature is surprised when it doesn't realise that it's in danger, and stops being surprised when it (finally) realises that it is in danger! So, if that sniper's arrow (critically) hits you, the DM will (probably) determine, by fiat, that you are no longer surprised on the grounds that this arrow sticking out of you (along with the Sucking Chest Wound) counts as clear evidence that you are in danger.
What if the sniper missed? The arrow might pass unseen and unheard into the bushes, or it might clatter loudly off the stonework. If there is a doubt, that's what rolls are for!
Also, it doesn't have to be the first round of combat per se, it could be the first round for a particular creature. For example, if you are in combat when a hidden enemy snipes from the bushes, this would not auto-crit. You are in battle, on the lookout for danger, you are not surprised. So, that attack from hidden may have advantage (and Sneak Attack), but no auto-crit. But imagine that your combat has been going for some time, when you suddenly burst into a room. The occupant may very well be surprised! It is his first round of combat, and he may not have been aware of danger. Contested rolls (or DM fiat) to determine if that creature is surprised.
So, back to the example earlier in the thread: the target is standing in the open (on his smartphone or whatever) when the hidden assassin says he's going to attempt to assassinate the target. At this point the DM determines surprise, either just by saying that the target is surprised or (more likely in this case) having that assassin make a Stealth check which beats the target's passive Perception.
Let's say the target is surprised. Now, initiative is rolled. Lets say that the vagaries of the dice result in the victim having a higher initiative total.
Initiative counts down, and reaches the score of the target. He is surprised, so cannot act. After this, he can take reactions.
Does the ability to take reactions now mean that he is no longer surprised? No! There is no rule to support this absurd idea! If you look at the reactions you have available, I'd be shocked if you can take it against an attack that you know nothing about! You take reactions to respond to things you can see (or are aware of), and the target in this little scenario is still blissfully unaware of the assassin! Remember, surprise is determined by opposed Stealth/Perception scores (in this scenario), not by initiative (which determines how fast you react, not what you perceive).
So our victim is still surprised, because he doesn't know of any danger and the assassin has done nothing (yet) to change that.
Next, the assassin's turn. He shoots from hidden, so has advantage. If that attack hits, then because the victim is still surprised then it is an auto-crit because the assassin class feature says it is. If that attack hits and crits, and the target is still conscious, is he still surprised? I doubt it! I think that most DMs would rule by fiat that he now realises that he is in danger. Subsequent attacks may or may not have advantage, but will not auto-crit from the assassinate ability.
What if the assassin misses? The DM will determine (by fiat or by rolling) if the target has stopped being surprised, based on things that the target could perceive (like noticing an arrow zip by his nose).
What if the target doesn't notice the miss; is he still surprised? Yes, if the DM determines that he is still surprised in round 2, then the game mechanics of surprise are still in play. Granted, his first turn has come and gone, so the target can act normally on his turn in round 2, but if he has no reason to believe he's in danger then he is still surprised and still vulnerable to auto-crits from the assassinate ability. When the target takes his action in round 2, he cannot attack the assassin simply because he has no clue that there even is an assassin. He could, in theory, use an action to roll a Perception check, and if he beats the assassin's previously rolled Stealth check then he will notice the assassin and as a consequence no longer be surprised. However, in theory, the target my stay surprised for many rounds.
In practice however, this is unlikely. If an arrow has been shot, this is combat and we are already in combat rounds. If the assassin did not even shoot, then there is little reason to be in combat rounds.
I've read every post on this thread, and joined this forum just to point this out! On here, people are seriously saying that because your initiative score is reached that you are no longer surprised!
That is not how surprise works. The DM determines surprise. How? He can decide, by fiat, that creature X is surprised. Or, he may use some other method. The most common being opposed Stealth/Perception rolls, although opposed Deception/Insight rolls would be more appropriate in situations where the creature was already seen but you had no reason to believe that it was going to attack, such as being suddenly stabbed by your dentist for no reason.
What are the effects of surprise? Well, there are two game mechanics (that I know of) that apply when a creature is surprised:-
* in the first round of combat, a surprised creature cannot move or act on its turn, and cannot take reactions until its first turn is over
* if an assassin hits a surprised creature, then that hit is a critical hit!
Both are true, and both are true independently. Whether your turn has come up yet in the initiative count has absolutely no impact on whether or not you are surprised; it only impacts when you can act and/or take reactions.
When does a surprised creature stop being surprised? Is it when his first turn is over? No. The initiative count/your initiative total do not determine surprise.
The DM determines surprise (by fiat or by an appropriate check), and the DM determines when a surprised creature stops being surprised (by fiat, or by an appropriate check).
Conceptually, a creature is surprised when it doesn't realise that it's in danger, and stops being surprised when it (finally) realises that it is in danger! So, if that sniper's arrow (critically) hits you, the DM will (probably) determine, by fiat, that you are no longer surprised on the grounds that this arrow sticking out of you (along with the Sucking Chest Wound) counts as clear evidence that you are in danger.
What if the sniper missed? The arrow might pass unseen and unheard into the bushes, or it might clatter loudly off the stonework. If there is a doubt, that's what rolls are for!
Also, it doesn't have to be the first round of combat per se, it could be the first round for a particular creature. For example, if you are in combat when a hidden enemy snipes from the bushes, this would not auto-crit. You are in battle, on the lookout for danger, you are not surprised. So, that attack from hidden may have advantage (and Sneak Attack), but no auto-crit. But imagine that your combat has been going for some time, when you suddenly burst into a room. The occupant may very well be surprised! It is his first round of combat, and he may not have been aware of danger. Contested rolls (or DM fiat) to determine if that creature is surprised.
So, back to the example earlier in the thread: the target is standing in the open (on his smartphone or whatever) when the hidden assassin says he's going to attempt to assassinate the target. At this point the DM determines surprise, either just by saying that the target is surprised or (more likely in this case) having that assassin make a Stealth check which beats the target's passive Perception.
Let's say the target is surprised. Now, initiative is rolled. Lets say that the vagaries of the dice result in the victim having a higher initiative total.
Initiative counts down, and reaches the score of the target. He is surprised, so cannot act. After this, he can take reactions.
Does the ability to take reactions now mean that he is no longer surprised? No! There is no rule to support this absurd idea! If you look at the reactions you have available, I'd be shocked if you can take it against an attack that you know nothing about! You take reactions to respond to things you can see (or are aware of), and the target in this little scenario is still blissfully unaware of the assassin! Remember, surprise is determined by opposed Stealth/Perception scores (in this scenario), not by initiative (which determines how fast you react, not what you perceive).
So our victim is still surprised, because he doesn't know of any danger and the assassin has done nothing (yet) to change that.
Next, the assassin's turn. He shoots from hidden, so has advantage. If that attack hits, then because the victim is still surprised then it is an auto-crit because the assassin class feature says it is. If that attack hits and crits, and the target is still conscious, is he still surprised? I doubt it! I think that most DMs would rule by fiat that he now realises that he is in danger. Subsequent attacks may or may not have advantage, but will not auto-crit from the assassinate ability.
What if the assassin misses? The DM will determine (by fiat or by rolling) if the target has stopped being surprised, based on things that the target could perceive (like noticing an arrow zip by his nose).
What if the target doesn't notice the miss; is he still surprised? Yes, if the DM determines that he is still surprised in round 2, then the game mechanics of surprise are still in play. Granted, his first turn has come and gone, so the target can act normally on his turn in round 2, but if he has no reason to believe he's in danger then he is still surprised and still vulnerable to auto-crits from the assassinate ability. When the target takes his action in round 2, he cannot attack the assassin simply because he has no clue that there even is an assassin. He could, in theory, use an action to roll a Perception check, and if he beats the assassin's previously rolled Stealth check then he will notice the assassin and as a consequence no longer be surprised. However, in theory, the target my stay surprised for many rounds.
In practice however, this is unlikely. If an arrow has been shot, this is combat and we are already in combat rounds. If the assassin did not even shoot, then there is little reason to be in combat rounds.
When you are surprised you can't take any type of action or move right.
After your first turn you can take reactions right.
Reactions are a type of action.
So after your turn is over, you are no longer surprised.
Again here is Mike Mearls talking about when surprise ends http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/07/30/how-long-surprise-last/
Here is Rodney Thompson talking about not letting sucker punches go before or at the top of initiative http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/05/13/sucker-punch/
All attacks happen in initiative.
Surprise lasts until your first turn is over.
I don't see how these things are hard to grasp as rules. You can most certainly disagree with the rules and change them in your games but trying to say thats not how the rules are supposed to work is just having blinders on.
