D&D 5E Assassinate

[Lidgar]

What's missing is a class oriented way for assassins to boost their reaction times.

Boost reaction time or initiative?

Applying advantage to an assassin's initiative roll if he is hidden from the target is fair.

Perhaps this is the class ability you are seeking?

 

[MG.0]

Boost reaction time or initiative?

Applying advantage to an assassin's initiative roll if he is hidden from the target is fair.

Perhaps this is the class ability you are seeking?

Not sure about the balance. I mean the assassin is already hidden at the start or the target wouldn't be surprised, but you'd have to determine if they stay hidden during the attack. You'd have to judge when to grant it. Seems kind of messy.


Edit: I was think an all-round boost to assassin initiative at some point to reflect their training in speed as well as precision for their attacks.

 

[MG.0]

I have read it and understand it, I don't agree with it 100%, Assassin running from behind a rock (movement less than 30) I see the Initiative roll impact, I don't see it when the Assassin is using a Bow, has stealth and surprise but lost initiative. The Assassin fires the Arrow from 30 feet, takes less then a second for the arrow to hit but some how the victim wins the initiative and the assassin lost the autocrit. the victim does not know the assassin is there but wins the initiative

When the Arrow hits (in the back), the Assassin is no longer hidden, the damage is done, Roll Initiative

The Games that I'm in do it that way when we play 5.0, (we have never played an assassin running from a rock), we don't have assassins with an intelligence of 3 either

There have been example that demonstrate how this would work narratively. Yes the assassin is hidden at the start of combat, but in attempting an attack, he gives his intent away somehow, e.g. a glint of sunlight off the arrowhead, target hears the creak of the bow, whoosh of the arrow, or anything else you can imagine. All it means narratively is that the target shifted a hair, turning a deadly strike into a normal one. By tying it to initiative, it means a slow attack by the assassin lacks the speed and precision needed to critically injure. That's it.

 

[pming]

*blink blink*

Er... am I missing something or reading something incorrectly? To me it sounds like folks are saying "During a Surprise round, roll Initiative to see when people go during that Surprise round". In other words, there is no such thing as Surprise, because even if you successfully sneak up on someone who is completely unaware of you, as soon as you 'act', you roll initiative. I could "surprise" someone, then loose initiative, meaning I never surprised that someone in the first place. Why even roll stealth, perception, etc checks when it's all coming down to an Initiative roll? ... I must be missing something here... Can someone fill me in?

To me, Surprise is like the "Deer in the Headlights" scenario. You're a deer. You just finished munching on some sweet, sweet, luscious grass at the side of a bend in the road. You look and see more on the other side. You walk up the bank, and start heading across. Suddenly a speeding electric car (that you didn't hear or see coming around the bend, obviously) comes. You stare, wide-eyed at the headlights...your deer brain races... What tha?!? Is that...? I should run...wait... Forward? Back! No, hold on a sec...is it even coming my way? Maybe I should just... *BLAMMO!!* You're struck by a car. You were "Surprised"...all the way up to and including when you got hit. You saw it coming straight at you...and you did nothing. Why? You were SURPRISED! You didn't get to roll Initiative because, well, you were surprised. You didn't get an Action. You didn't get a Bonus Action. You didn't get a Reaction. You were surprised....that's the entire point of being surprised, isn't it? To not be able to do anything?

In the preceding thread, the assassin jumping out and stabbing the wizard...if the wizard failed to detect the assassin (re: the wizard was surprised), he can't "do anything" because he's the deer and the assassin is the car.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[MG.0]

*blink blink* Er... am I missing something or reading something incorrectly? To me it sounds like folks are saying "During a Surprise round, roll Initiative to see when people go during that Surprise round". In other words, there is no such thing as Surprise, because even if you successfully sneak up on someone who is completely unaware of you, as soon as you 'act', you roll initiative. I could "surprise" someone, then loose initiative, meaning I never surprised that someone in the first place. Why even roll stealth, perception, etc checks when it's all coming down to an Initiative roll? ... I must be missing something here... Can someone fill me in? To me, Surprise is like the "Deer in the Headlights" scenario. You're a deer. You just finished munching on some sweet, sweet, luscious grass at the side of a bend in the road. You look and see more on the other side. You walk up the bank, and start heading across. Suddenly a speeding electric car (that you didn't hear or see coming around the bend, obviously) comes. You stare, wide-eyed at the headlights...your deer brain races... What tha?!? Is that...? I should run...wait... Forward? Back! No, hold on a sec...is it even coming my way? Maybe I should just... *BLAMMO!!* You're struck by a car. You were "Surprised"...all the way up to and including when you got hit. You saw it coming straight at you...and you did nothing. Why? You were SURPRISED! You didn't get to roll Initiative because, well, you were surprised. You didn't get an Action. You didn't get a Bonus Action. You didn't get a Reaction. You were surprised....that's the entire point of being surprised, isn't it? To not be able to do anything? In the preceding thread, the assassin jumping out and stabbing the wizard...if the wizard failed to detect the assassin (re: the wizard was surprised), he can't "do anything" because he's the deer and the assassin is the car. ^_^ Paul L. Ming

Surprised beings can't move or take actions, but they can take reactions after their turn in initiative order has passed because the effect of the surprise has worn off. That's why the assassin gets advantage only against cretures that haven't yet taken a turn in combat. Too slow, and he's making a normal attack. The target still can't move or take actions though.

 

[sithramir]

Surprised beings can't move or take actions, but they can take reactions after their turn in initiative order has passed because the effect of the surprise has worn off. That's why the assassin gets advantage only against cretures that haven't yet taken a turn in combat. Too slow, and he's making a normal attack. The target still can't move or take actions though.

They can take reactions. The rules don't state surprise has worn off. That's the issue of debate.

 

[Paraxis]

They can take reactions. The rules don't state surprise has worn off. That's the issue of debate.

Correct, but it does say when the creature can take actions (reactions are a special type of action) and that is after the end of it's first turn.

The options for when surprise does end come down to the following.

When the surprised creatures first turn is over and they can take reactions, this is how myself and Mike Mearls both read the rules.

When the first round ends, this doesn't make much sense to me as nothing else in the entire game is based on when rounds start or end and it would be odd for it to be this without them actually stating it clearly.

When the creature starts it's second turn, the one in which it can take actions and move. The issue with this is depending on initiative rolls they could face two turns of assassinate feature attacks, it doesn't allude to this anywhere in the rules, and the surprised creature could have already made attacks of opportunity or used a reaction to cast a spell or use a class ability by then.

When the creature first notices an enemy that surprises them, this is odd to me as only the very first attacker could benefit from a feature like assassinate, so two assassins couldn't work together well, and again you would think they would say this somewhere.

It is very hard for me to read the rules and get anything but the first option, but for those that get a different take on it more power to them they will rule differently at their table. My issue is when I see people trying to tell new players it should be one of the other ways when to me the rules are clear its the first and a designer has backed that up, I would hope people would just tell the new inquisitive players with questions the rules say X but Y makes more sense to me.

 

[Lidgar]

Edit: I was think an all-round boost to assassin initiative at some point to reflect their training in speed as well as precision for their attacks.

How about when an assassin attacks a creature using a finesse or ranged weapon, he gains advantage on initiative? Would need to decide if it kicked in at 3rd or 9th level.

 

[MG.0]

They can take reactions. The rules don't state surprise has worn off. That's the issue of debate.

That's why I said the effect of surprise, namely the lack of being able to take a reaction, has worn off.

Yes, there is debate as to whether surprise as affects the assassin ability Assassinate has worn off at that point. Personally I think it has worn off for the reasons I've already stated.

First, surprise is very concisely explained in the PHB:

If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action
on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a
reaction until that turn ends.

Just considering the general case of surprise and imagining a game with no assassins, it doesn't really make sense to talk about being surprised outside that range of time because there are no other effects whatsoever.

Secondly, adding consideration for the assassin class ability Assassinate:

Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you
get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on
attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn
in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against
a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.

The debate comes from the last sentence: Is a surprised target who's turn has passed (and can therefore take reactions) still surprised?

Some say no, some say yes.

No: A fast assassin gets advantage and an automatic-critical. A slow assassin gets a normal attack.
Yes: A fast assassin gets advantage and an automatic-critical. A slow assassin gets no advantge yet still gets an automatic critical.

Regardless, you still have to track initiative during the surprise round to determine whether or not the assassin gets advantage.

The end result is hardly earth shatteringly different played either way, but I think 'no' gives a cleaner more cohesive result.

I think the second part of that ability is meant to apply "in addition" to the first, just as the sentence says, i.e. it doesn't occur when the assassin is attacking something which has already had a turn in combat. It also seems backward to think that adding the Assassinate ability to the game would extend the noticable length of time a target is surprised compared to the surprise rules alone. The possibility that a slow assassin would not get advantage and yet still get an auto-critical seems weird and slightly clunky to me too.

Somewhere someone posted that a (possibly) official clarification ruled it was intended to work as I suggest, although honestly I don't care so much about that, only wanting an internally consistent game world that is easy to run.

 

[MG.0]

How about when an assassin attacks a creature using a finesse or ranged weapon, he gains advantage on initiative? Would need to decide if it kicked in at 3rd or 9th level.

Not bad at all.