D&D 5E At what level does play become "high level"?

[dave2008]

Again, I ask if anyone knows what percentage of the D&D market is represented by D&D Beyond?

D&D Beyond does not represent, nor contains the entire D&D player base. Stating that only 10% of Characters advance beyond 10th level strikes me very much akin to a study stating that only 10% of people that drive BMWs have commutes that exceed 15 miles.

While there are many BMW drivers in the world, not all drivers, drive BMW.
To evaluate the value of D&D Beyond statistics, we need to have some inkling of what percentage of the D&D population the service has as customers.

D&D Beyond is a paywall....this mean, that most likely the people using DDB are some combination of the following: Wealthier, Older, and Whiter then the population at large.

The fact that people throw around the D&D Beyond stats as gospel, is disturbing.
Sure, the data means something, but we lack the contextual knowledge to know with any certainty what the data truly signifies.

Several points:

1. We don't even really know how big the D&D market is, so the answer to that is definitely: no, we don't know the % of the market that uses D&D beyond. Also, the data I linked was based on character's made, not actual users. So we essentially no nothing about the overall player base.
2. We don't have a lot a data, so we use the data we have.
3. I, and I assume others, don't think the D&D Beyond data says anything beyond what it says about users of its platform. No one is taking it as a one-to-one relationship with the entire D&D player base.
4. D&D Beyond is not behind a pay all. I was a member for years without paying for anything. I believe the entire SRD content is free. Anything beyond that is behind a pay wall.
5. I will reiterate that I personally am not, nor do I think anyone else is, taking D&D Beyond data as "gospel." However, it is somewhat corroborated by what WotC says about their own data and posts on these forums.

 

[dave2008]

I think it's mostly the latter, with a some of the former with a twist of "The way D&D Beyond is set up skews things" on top.

Interesting. Follow up:

1. We don't really know how D&D Beyond relates to the overall player base, but WotC also says their data suggest high level is less well traveled. Do you have information that suggests otherwise. Personally, as a person you loves epic, high, & ultra-high level play, I have never had a campaign go 1-20 to epic. We always play an adventure or two at high level to try it out, but most of our campaigns end around lvl 10 (even in 4e).
2. How much do you think the D&D Beyond data is different from the whole player baes? If D&D Beyond says 90% of campaigns stop at about 10th level, what do you think the % is for the whole player base? Personally, I have had one campaign go past 11th level (my current one) in about 35 years of gaming. However, since we advance at a slow pace, I think that is closer 15% of our games getting past 10th level.
3. So a part of believes D&D Beyond is lying about their data? For what purpose I wonder?
4. Another part of you believes how they collect or present data is misleading. What is your issue the presentation / collection of the data?

 

[Guest User]

dave2008, I've been a "lurking reader" of this website and GITPG for a year or two.
The phrase: "Most campaigns do not advance beyond 10th level" is invoked with startling regularity at both websites.

On GITPG, I have never personally seen anyone question the use or meaning of the statistic. The phrase is invoked, to disregard critiques that invoke the "long view"

Free access to SRD material is a paywall...giving away personal information to access information that is already available online, might not involve one making a payment of funds, but dealing in marketing information is lucrative.

Baba Yaga might not charge you coins for her aid, but she is not doing it for "free".
A for profit company, is also not doing it for "free".

 

[Haffrung]

The D&D Beyond data isn’t the only source that few campaigns go beyond level 10. WotC conducted a major market survey and analysis for D&D Next. And while I don’t recall seeing any hard numbers posted, Mike Mearls commented in various forums that the average age of players was younger than common wisdom in the industry had assumed, and most campaigns last for less than a year.

 

[Guest User]

We don't really know how D&D Beyond relates to the overall player base, but WotC also says their data suggest high level is less well traveled.

Of course fewer people will have reached 17th + level....anything that requires a sustained period of time and energy is going to have fewer people that reach the summit.

I like 5e a lot, but perhaps WOTC should work on improving people playing into higher levels. If Mt Everest can have hiking traffic jams due to the amount of hikers attempting to summit, perhaps some resources should be devoted to helping D&D player to summit.

I am not religious but I try to go to the church of D&D every chance I get.
It moves me to pity, to think people have been playing for decades, but have never moved past the nave of their church.

I know "pity" has some negative connotations, for some. To be crystal clear, I am explicitly NOT stating that those that have played at Higher levels are 'better' than those that have not played at levels past 12+.

High Level play, 17+, is quite fun, and experiencing it is worthwhile, and illuminating.

 

[Maxperson]

@dave2008 I will reply to your post when I get home from work and can give it the time it deserves.

 

[Guest User]

Mike Mearls commented in various forums that the average age of players was younger than common wisdom in the industry had assumed, and most campaigns last for less than a year.

Yep....when the game becomes popular in the mainstream, then most players are casual players, that play in a few short campaigns and probably never play again.

There is nothing surprising about that.

What does surprise me is the hardcore, grognard base, may not be as hardcore as I presumed.

dave2008 updated creatures like Tiamat, and the Demon Princes to include Mythic Monster features as detailed in MOoTheros. Yet dave2008 has never passed 12th level.
I'm fairly confident, regular old...CR 30 or so Tiamat will be favored to defeat a 12th level party, without Mythic Upgrades.

In using the Mythic Monster rules, I found them to be uninspired..."let's add MORE HP"...which just is not fun in actual play. I like the rules in theory, but when I actually used the rules, it was a slog.

Actual experience does matter, sometimes.

That said, dave2008's updates were very cool, inspired me to use the rules, and I value very much his and other's perspectives.

 

[dave2008]

dave2008 updated creatures like Tiamat, and the Demon Princes to include Mythic Monster features as detailed in MOoTheros. Yet dave2008 has never passed 12th level.

If you read carefully you would have noted: " We always play an adventure or two at high level to try it out." So, though our current 5e campaign is at 15th level, we we've run:

• An adventure at 20th level
• An adventure at 20th level + epic boons
• An adventure at 21-25th level using Epic Characters
• Epic battles of various levels up lvl 30.

We always try out the top levels, typically when our normal characters are only 1st - 5th level, primarily because we never get there in a standard campaign.

 

[dave2008]

High Level play, 17+, is quite fun, and experiencing it is worthwhile, and illuminating.

I agree completely, that is why I spend so much time making epic monsters!

 

[Guest User]

If you read carefully you would have noted:

Yeah...I most certainly did not read carefully.

I was quite honestly shocked, to confront the possibility that my play experience might be vastly different from other's with 30+ plus years playing the game.
I've had a handful of campaigns advance to Very High Levels over the decades.
I figured most people had a time or two.

I love limited series style high level campaigns...crazy Concepts, crazy Items, crazy stats, crazy spells....all at session one.