At-will class powers ruining my archetypes

[Mallus]

Does the player who has the first move not have an advantage over the player who is forced to react?

White does have a slight advantage. Emphasis on the slight.

 

[Mallus]

6 * 10 damage is the same as 5 * 2 damage and 1 * 50 damage. That's what we're looking at. How to employ the 5 * 2 damage and 1 * 50 damage style to 4E's mechanics. You can do 60 damage slowly and evenly, or you can do 60 damage very slowly, but with one big spike. Same 'balance', different type/level of interest.

This analysis is shallow. It doesn't take into account the ability, or inability, to produce different damage types every round. Wizards, for instance, have at-will area of effect attacks, which are great for minion&swarm clearing, clerics and paladins have radiant at-wills which are great against undead, especially regenerating undead --radiant damage prevent regeneration.

So it's not simply a case of 5*10 = 25*2...

 

[Remathilis]

Does the player who has the first move not have an advantage over the player who is forced to react?

Never seen a three-move checkmate with black, huh?

 

[CleverNickName]

Yep. Now try to explain it using Con. I can't.

Yeah, that doesn't sound so easy. I'll try, though. First, which character class uses Constitution as the base ability score for at-will attacks?

 

[Cadfan]

Who cares whether you can explain the logic behind it.

Look, lets say the feat were worded like this:

Melee Training
You've drilled in basic combat skills just as thoroughly as you have trained yourself in other matters.
Benefit: When making basic melee attacks, treat your strength score as being equal to your best ability score.

Same mechanical effect, and now we don't have to complain about using constitution to attack with a sword.

Its all about how the game plays, not how the game runs behind the scenes. The behind the scenes combat mechanics could run on a dGERBIL system for all I care, as long as it creates good in-game results.

 

[Ourph]

Yeah, that doesn't sound so easy. I'll try, though. First, which character class uses Constitution as the base ability score for at-will attacks?

Some Warlocks use Con as their main attack stat; which actually meshes well with the flavor of their powers. As another example, a Dragonborn's breath attack can also key off of Con.

 

[Sadrik]

The easy fix to this is to simply say "All classes get to use their primary stat for all their basic attacks". But, this suggestion has been brought up and Sadrik doesn't like it as he thinks it's bad to allow classes to your their INT modifier to attack with a crossbow(Even though Artificers already do).

Initial thought

I don't like it. It gives everyone the exact same chance to hit (minus proficiency, magic items, feats and powers).

Then

Ok, I'll concede the point this is one of the "ideas" of 4e. This feat actually moves the game further in that direction and if you can use any Stat to make an attack with your powers why not allow it with a basic attack. Sure.

 

[CleverNickName]

Some Warlocks use Con as their main attack stat; which actually meshes well with the flavor of their powers. As another example, a Dragonborn's breath attack can also key off of Con.

Interesting idea: what if all at-will abilities were based on race, and not class?

Dwarves and Half-orcs use their Str mod for melee weapons, Halflings and Gnomes use their Dex mod for thrown weapons, Dragonborn use their Con mod for breath weapons, Elves use their Int mod for projectile weapons, Tieflings use their Cha mod for melee damage rolls, etc.

 

[Ourph]

Interesting idea: what if all at-will abilities were based on race, and not class?

I think it adds complexity without any real pay-off in fun, plus it restricts archetypes by further shoehorning specific races into specific classes. I don't like it.

 

[Dausuul]

If you ask me, there's no need to mess around with caster at-wills. Just ban all non-martial classes except as multi-class options. Or, if you want to take it a step further, ban them entirely and let the only kind of spellcasting available be ritual magic.

There you go; rare magic. The warlord might be able to throw a scorching burst once an encounter, and the ranger might know a few healing and nature rituals, but nobody will be using magic for every attack. Call it "Iron Heroes Second Edition."

(Of course, if you're going that route, you should probably ban nonhuman races as well. As far as I'm concerned, trying to make magic feel rare and exotic is ridiculous when your party consists of an eladrin, a goliath, a gnome, and a dragonborn.)