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At-will class powers ruining my archetypes

I have no comment on the warlock, I have not seen them enough in play to really comment. The restoration of eldritch blast seems ok.
I have some long-running experience with the warlock. The Eldritch Blast as it currently stands is a bit of a shaft, since its damage it just gives the warlock the equivalent of a basic attack--in other words, it just gives the warlock what the ranger takes completely for granted and never uses.

I think in the system proposed, it makes sense to allow the warlock to simply keep this as a basic attack.
 

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I have some long-running experience with the warlock. The Eldritch Blast as it currently stands is a bit of a shaft, since its damage it just gives the warlock the equivalent of a basic attack--in other words, it just gives the warlock what the ranger takes completely for granted and never uses.

I think in the system proposed, it makes sense to allow the warlock to simply keep this as a basic attack.

Warlock
The Eldritch Blast class feature is an encounter power that deals 1d10 + Charisma damage and can be used two times during an encounter and three times at 16th level.

How does this look? That way it is not an auto no-brainer. They may have to rely on a weapon in an extended combat. Basically it is a "reserve feat" for the Eldritch Blast power.

Btw I stuck the rules for this 4e change down at the bottom of page 8. I think I will duplicate them here also for easier reading.

If you want to implement this in your game here is what I have so far. Is there anything that I am forgetting? Perhaps others can speak to the newer classes and feats from further supplements.

Powers
At-Will Powers
Characters select three encounter powers at 1st level. All class level 1 at-will powers become encounter powers with their 21st level damage.

Races
Dragonborn
Increase the Dragon Breath encounter power to 2d6 damage.

Half-Elf
Dilettante racial feature allows you to select an encounter power from another class and use it as an encounter power.

Human
Bonus at will power racial feature allows you to select a bonus encounter power from your classes encounter powers.

Tiefling
Increase the bonus to the attack roll for the infernal wrath power to +2

Classes
Ranger
The twin strike at-will power is deleted.

Warlock
The Eldritch Blast class feature is an encounter power that deals 1d10 + Charisma damage and can be used two times during an encounter and three times at 16th level.

Feats
Heavy Blade Opportunity
You can use an encounter power with this feat.

Arcane Initiate
You can use each wizard cantrip as an encounter power.
 

You seem to want to change it to:

1 completely vanilla thing he can do every round
5 things he can do once each every fight
3 things he can do once per day.
WalterKovacs said:
1 completely vanilla thing he can do every round ... that every other class is also doing.
That is exactly what I want. I want all classes to share enough of their abilities in combat that I can believe they're non-magical humanoids at heart. I don't want 'flashy' super-beings who can cast magic all day, or shoot two arrows every 6 seconds, or hit enemies over the head to make them glow with holy guiding light (that only benefits one companion) every round.
I want bless instead of priest's shield. I want bane instead of righteous brand.
I want firing two arrows in one round to be special, not something that is considered normal.
I want wizards to have their limits like they've always had in every edition of D&D going back to the beginning.

Doing something every round is a feat or a class feature, or a basic ability that everyone can do. Not a class specific power or spell.

The every round slot should be as quick and vanilla as possible and eat up as little game time as possible. It is more interesting to have outright booms than to take 'em out from a million nicks with little time eating mini-bennies attached to them.

And above all I want this. If you're doing something you can do every round, I don't want it to take more time to figure out than "I hit/miss, I deal damage". None of the "Fred gets a +2 against this specific creature, in this unlikely circumstance, and it only lasts for a round so I'll have to repeat myself if I do exactly the same thing next round".

Effects that alter circumstances (like +2 to hit) should last for more than one round. Preferably for the whole encounter once initiated. In other words, I don't want to be making notes every round and crossing them out every round. Just like I don't want to alter my Str or Dex and have to recalculate my character every round in 3E.
 

I have some long-running experience with the warlock. The Eldritch Blast as it currently stands is a bit of a shaft, since its damage it just gives the warlock the equivalent of a basic attack--in other words, it just gives the warlock what the ranger takes completely for granted and never uses.

I think in the system proposed, it makes sense to allow the warlock to simply keep this as a basic attack.

Isn't Magic missle the same for wizards...just the basic ranged attacks???
 

Agreed, but those should be special attacks not your basic attack.

Why should members of a class not learn special ways to fight so that even their basic attacks are based on their strengths rather than on their weakest traits? You are punishing/nerfing a lot of classes for no reason.
 

That is exactly what I want. I want all classes to share enough of their abilities in combat that I can believe they're non-magical humanoids at heart. I don't want 'flashy' super-beings who can cast magic all day, or shoot two arrows every 6 seconds, or hit enemies over the head to make them glow with holy guiding light (that only benefits one companion) every round.
I want bless instead of priest's shield. I want bane instead of righteous brand.
I want firing two arrows in one round to be special, not something that is considered normal.
I want wizards to have their limits like they've always had in every edition of D&D going back to the beginning.

However, they are going to be doing a lot of things that are different each time. Instead of doing the same "little" thing every round, they are using a completely different encounter power every oher turn.

And the "limits" of wizards only really existed at lower levels. Once a wizard hit a certain point, it was off to the races. This is sort of what is being proposed hear. Give the wizard a limit BUT make the fights short enough that the limit never comes up, or comes up rarely.

Doing something every round is a feat or a class feature, or a basic ability that everyone can do. Not a class specific power or spell.

Ignoring the previous editions warlock ... the ranger got their feat for free ... as a class feature. Rapid Shot/Two Weapon Fighting is basically a melee power. Since there are NO "powers" in 3.5 for martial types (until book of nine swords) there aren't going to be many cases of this. One example: Is the monks flurry of blows a class feature or a class specific power? It is class specific. It is an attack. However it would probably qualify as being a class feature. Either way though, it was something they could constantly do, that only they could do. It was part of what made them monks.

Part of what made rangers what they were was their fighting style that either involved two weapon fighting ... which gave them extra attacks ... or archery powers ... that gave them extra attacks. Kind of like twin strike.

Magic users may not have had unlimited attacks ... they did however invest in magic items (and later reserve feats) that could make them effectively have unlimited magic. Or, more often, they would force the entire party to rest whenever they ran out. Since it was daily based, instead of encounter based, it is a lot easier to do this. If you run out of powers IN an encounter, you can't just "give up and rest". However, if you are running low on dailies, you can stop before the next encounter.

So, while in the past magic users had limits ... in many cases players would just find ways of circumventing that. Part of that involves skipping the first few levels (not just for this reason, but also things like the sweet spot, HP ammounts, access to magic items, etc). Part of it involves loading up on "cure sticks" and other useful wands to give more resources over time. As time went on, magic items started to convert from charges to uses per day, and feats were added to give at-will options for magic users (reserve feats).

And above all I want this. If you're doing something you can do every round, I don't want it to take more time to figure out than "I hit/miss, I deal damage". None of the "Fred gets a +2 against this specific creature, in this unlikely circumstance, and it only lasts for a round so I'll have to repeat myself if I do exactly the same thing next round".

Because if you are doing the same thing constantly its going to remain difficult to keep track of? How is having more encounter powers, which each do something different, and unlike daily powers rarely have long term durations that much different. The ability you use once per fight (and is 1 of at least 3, up to 6 or 7, not counting utilities or dailies, etc) is going to be easier to remember all the details than something you use multiple times during a fight.

Ignore that a number of at-wills are fire and forget as well, like twin strike, eldritch blast, magic missle, heck even some stuff like thunderwave, tide of iron, and things like that are also fire and forget. Giving people THP? Again, you right it on the sheet and voila, you just do a bit of extra damage. Give someone an immediate attack, move someone around, attack multiple targets, attack a non-AC defence, move before or after the attack, etc, etc, etc ...

Only a few involve round long effects you have to remember, and which are comparable to a number of round long effects that are class features, like the fighter's mark, or the warlock's concealment, that provide the same kind of numbers you need to track. [Unlike mod'ing STR or DEX, you don't have to recalculate one value that in turn recalculates a LOT of values ... you are told directly what 'final' value is modified instead]. If you use the power often enough, and you know what the "special condition" is, you can easily know when it isn't going to matter.

I'm not going to say there isn't a case of "remember your modifiers" at the table during the sessions ... but continuous modifiers and feat based modifiers are just as easy to forget about.

Ultimately, it would seem that if an at-will is being used say ... 3 times per fight, it's going to be easier to remember the math involved [including your encounters and dailies] than having no at-wills and more encounters. You have less to calculate for your basic attacks (except of course, their initial math is probably different than your class based abilities, and if you have powers with longer durations as you've suggested, you have to apply that math to these powers anyway). And, since you are never using the same "complex" power twice, you have to get used to more powers that recur less often.
 

I think this reasoning is very flawed.

Its not about how interesting the individual powers are, viewed in a vacuum. Its about how interesting the character as a whole is, viewed in total. Having things that you can do whenever you like makes your character, overall, more interesting. Reaping Strike might not be as awesome as an at will power in comparison to how awesome it would be if we enhanced it and made it an encounter power, but so what?

Right now my human fighter has a suite of three at will attacks. Each individual power might be cooler as an encounter power, but my fighter is cooler as a guy who can choose between three different tactical effects at any given time than he would be if he couldn't. And its more important that my character be cool than that his attack powers be cool viewed in a vacuum and unconnected to him.


The problem is that at-will powers are superior to every other option that is not also an at-will power, or an encounter or daily. Hence, basic attacks do not happen. Special combat options, those that still exist in 4e, are not going to happen. Instead, the at-will power is going to be spammed, over and over and over, occasionally puncuated by a not very exciting slightly more powerful encounter or daily.

4e does two things I just cannot live with. First, it reduces the variety of combat. Despite what some claim, I have never found my 3.5 combats to be full attack slogs. There are options, so even if you ended up just attacking, you at least had the option of weighing other options. Second, it removes the basic imagery of a character engaging in swordplay or whatever. Instead, combat is a montage of special moves. If an at-will has a specific effect, then every attack you make is flavored somewhat by that effect. Whereas with a basic attack, you are free to picture it as overpowering, deft, clever, lucky, whatever. But 4e powers kind of tell you what to picture.
 

The problem is that at-will powers are superior to every other option that is not also an at-will power, or an encounter or daily. Hence, basic attacks do not happen. Special combat options, those that still exist in 4e, are not going to happen. Instead, the at-will power is going to be spammed, over and over and over, occasionally puncuated by a not very exciting slightly more powerful encounter or daily.

4e does two things I just cannot live with. First, it reduces the variety of combat. Despite what some claim, I have never found my 3.5 combats to be full attack slogs. There are options, so even if you ended up just attacking, you at least had the option of weighing other options. Second, it removes the basic imagery of a character engaging in swordplay or whatever. Instead, combat is a montage of special moves. If an at-will has a specific effect, then every attack you make is flavored somewhat by that effect. Whereas with a basic attack, you are free to picture it as overpowering, deft, clever, lucky, whatever. But 4e powers kind of tell you what to picture.
I still don't get how having two attack options with different effects mean less variety than having one attack options with no effect but dealing damage. THINK ABOUT IT!

Forget Basic Attacks. They don't exist. Name them "Reaction Attacks", triggered by powers, opportunity attacks and class features.

For a Fighter, At-Will powers can be like being able to make an (Improved) Bull Rush or use Power Attack every round, to translate these into 3E terms.

And you can still flavor your at-will attacks however you want, the ules even say so. Reaping Strike, Sure Strike, Tide of Iron, or whatever else you have as your at-will power can be described in countless ways!
 

I still don't get how having two attack options with different effects mean less variety than having one attack options with no effect but dealing damage. THINK ABOUT IT!
I see this, you see this, but they do not. I understand where they are coming from. They see at-will powers as all being "special". And for something to be special, it can only be done some of the time.

When you label basic attacks "normal", then there has to be a reason to use them more often than your other attacks. Which there isn't. It is one of the first things I teach new people who are playing the game. Basic attacks aren't done. Forget you have them. Except on a charge, opportunity attack or attack granted by a Warlord, you'll never use it.

I know I don't have a problem with that. To me, at-will attacks are the absolutely most basic thing a class can do. Anyone who knows how the fight in the slightest is using attacks like Cleave or Reaping Strike rather than swinging wildly(basic attack). Just like anyone who knew how to fight in 3e was using Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Cleave, Great Cleave, Two Weapon Fighting, Trip, Grapple, and the Full Attack action rather than doing a standard attack. I viewed these all as the at-will powers of 3e.

In that same way, I view at-will powers for wizards as the absolutely most basic magic you learn when you study to become a wizard. It requires almost no energy to channel a Magic Missile. And it didn't require any real energy for my Wizard in 3e to do it either. He prepared 6 of them on an average day. He could Magic Missile every round he was not casting a higher level spell for the whole day. The only time he'd run out is when there were more than 4 fights in a day. Which happened...well, never. Even then, he could use Fiery Burst(the reserve feat) every round, forever. It did more damage than Magic Missile anyways.

I used a bow when I was level 1 and 2. By the time I was level 3, I pretty much never touched one again. I'm just happy to skip the bow phase.

Forget Basic Attacks. They don't exist. Name them "Reaction Attacks", triggered by powers, opportunity attacks and class features.
Yeah, I think this is the key point. Nearly every option listed in the Combat section of the PHB is to be used only in special circumstances. Normally, you use your at-will powers, because they are the bread and butter of your class. They are what define you as a Fighter and not just some guy with a sword.
 


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